Civil War (American)

@Cmdr:

dezrt,
I’ve been told we cannot call him “Smack” and, evidentially, I’ve been locked out of Private Messages because I called him thus.

There’s nothing wrong with Shortening a name, several of the times you shortened his name were intentionaly antagonistic.  You obviously know that, so letts play nice and drop the subject. :-)

If that’s possible to do, a mod can’t do it, only admin.

Jennifer could you provide a citation from Foote contradicting the ones Smacktard provided from Catton?

You have provided Foote’s credentials which I will not dispute as being less than Catton’s. I will accept Foote as authoritative a source as Catton.

What you have not done is provide evidence that Foote agrees with your interpretation of events.  :-)

Who is Bruce Catton?

Man i grew up on that guy, That American Heritage book on the civil war will remain the worlds greatest classic tabletop book on the Civil War. He was the Stephen Ambrose of the 1950’s and 60’s.

I have like 3 copies of that book and i used to sleep with it under my pillow. The most fascinating thing was those brilliant pictures of the battle scenes with the little soldiers all drawn by hand in full color. In preschool and first grade i wasted half the day staring at that, studying the various feints and charges and battlefield stories that were told by way of pictures. Its what led me to start playing with toy soldiers and latter wargames, and still latter Axis and Allies.

The American Heritage Picture History of the Civil War (1960) — Catton wrote the narrative portion of this book, which also included over 800 paintings and period photographs. It received a special Pulitzer citation in 1961.

everyone must own the above book. No question about it. Its like a bible for the starting point on learning this historical period. by now on ebay its only like $5

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Catton

Jen, what the hell are you under the influence of!!!??? On the first day of battle, the federal army was completely smashed. The 10th corp lost 10000 men in prisoners alone! The federals did not fall back, they ran as fast as their legs could carry them. They DID NOT choose to fall back, they where forced to.

Smacktard: If you haven’t been to Gettysburg, you should really consider spending a couple of days out there. It is a little crowded, but to walk across the ground where general Lee’s men did is really quite an experience that words cant describe.

You “note”? Here are some actual QUOTES from Foote (who NEVER considers the idea Lee ordered Pickett’s charge out of any other motive other than VICTORY).

On Meade:

"One more item concerned Lee, though few of his lieutenants agreed that it should be so. They were saying that Meade was about as able a general as Hooker, but considerably less bold, and they were exchanging congratulations on Lincoln’s appointment of another mediocre opponent for them. Lee, who had known the Pennsylvanian as a fellow engineer in the old army, did not agree. “General Meade will commit no blunder on my front," he said, "and if I make one he will make haste to take advantage of it.”

Day 1:

“The Federals were retreating pell-mell into the streets of Gettysburg, already jammed with other blue troops pouring down from the north, under pressure from Ewell, as into a funnel whose spout extended south.”

“These two hills, their summits a hundred feet above the town, which in turn was about half that far below the crest of Seminary Ridge, afforded the enemy a strong position — indeed, a natural fortess — on which to rally his whipped and panicky troops”

“Moreover, both of these reasons for continuing the offensive were merely adjunctive to Lee’s natural inclination, here as elsewhere, now as always, to keep a beaten opponent under pressure, adn thus off balance, just as long as his own troops had wind and strength enough to put one foot in front of the other.
        - The Federals are driven from Seminary Ridge”

Day Two:

“And yet, in light of the fact that each of the three attacking divisions in turn had come close to carrying the day, there was more to it than that. Specifically, there was Warren and there was Hancock, both of whom had served their commander in a way that none of Lee’s chief lieutenants had served him.”

http://homepage.eircom.net/%257Eodyssey/Quotes/History/Shelby_Foote_2.html#2-4

Odd, how Foote’s actual quotes dovetail with Catton. Both admit the federals were routed on day 1, both admit Lee had come very close on day two, and (though Foote doesn’t specifically mention Ewell), both talk about the strengths of certain Union officers (Chamberlain, Hancock, Warren), and the weaknesses of others (Ewell, Sickles).

Now, as Drzt says, maybe we can put this to rest? What turned into an interestikng hypothetical has become an exercise in fanaticism and futility.

One last: Jen made the point that to almost win is the same as losing. Not true. For example, if I punch someone in the face repeatedly, and ALMOST knock him out, did I somehow lose the fight? Meade’s forces were defeated on the first day… Meade was punched repeatedly on the 2nd, but stayed on his feet… Lee thought he could land the knock-out blow with Pickett, and failed.

That is basically Gettysberg, in one paragraph.

Edit:

Just to extend the metaphore further, Gettysberg was like a three-round fight:

Round 1: Lee cautiously approaches Meade. Lee lands several devastating blows. Meade staggers. Lee continues pummelling Meade, but Meade is saved by the bell. Meade retreats to his corner and regroups.
Lee wins the round.

Round 2: Meade assumes a defensive stance. Lee pummels Meade the entire round, opening up several cuts. Meade reels, staggers, drops to the ground twice, but Lee misses several knockout blows. Meade counters and bloodies Lee.
Lee narrowly wins the round on points.

Round 3: Meade keeps his defensive stance, knows Lee will go for the knockout blow to the center. Lee begins the round with a weak attack that Meade easily counters. Lee and Meade circle each other warily. Lee, unaware he is ahead on points, throws one last desperate haymaker. Meade guards his center. Lee breaks his hand on Meade’s forearm. Meade, barely conscious, has a chance to finish the fight, but is too battered, bruised and bloodied to do anything but wait for the bell.

Lee is unable to continue the fight. Meade wins a TKO.

Edited cause I like boxing.