Allied advantage? I don't see it

Germany can try to take out all the ships, but you are likely going to lose some air on G1.
You are also going to run into trouble in Afr.  If you send a sub to help take out the BB off Gib that means sub/trn Plus air to take out 1 sub, 2 trns, 1 bb in the UK sz.  That also means 1 bb/trn vs. 1 sub to send reinforcements into Egy, but if the UK sub hits in Def (33%) that is bad news right off the bat.  Then you still have the pesky trn off Ecan where you need air.  Germany can get into real trouble if they try to do too much.  Now if you are going sub vs. trn in Eus you’re really spreading your self thin and risk disaster and you’ll probably lose multiple ftrs somewhere along the way.

As for UK, they’ll counter Egy bringing in the bom if nec.

Germany should lose its med fleet on UK 2.

UK/US can still hit Afr in Rd 2 and Nor in Rd 3 and by Rd4-5 you are looking at all three Allies in Kar.

Now Russia can start pushing back on Japan while the UK/US take out Germany.

So Japan has about 5 rds to take and hold Novo and do so with enough force to then take Moscow.  It shouldn’t happen with a tactical retreat in the East by Russia and the US in the first few rds.

The Allies shouldn’t engage Japan unitl they try to take Novo, unless Japan got hammered on dice or something.

The Allies can also land in Spain if they want to go the WE route.

Germany can hold against Russia but they can’t hold against UK, US, AND Russia and can’t keep the seas clear without massive losses in the air which means Russia can be extremely aggressive.

With Russia Restricted you might also see a 3 inf, 3 arm buy so that Russia can be an offensive player right off the bat.
Which still means 15 inf, 6 arm, 2 ftrs in Kar (if my memory serves me correctly) and requires all German Air to try and crack, but now UK can counter on UK 1.

It is just extremely difficult as the Axis without at least a little help (usually in Afr) in terms of some extra units.

I should also say that even if you are going after Germany first it is not uncommon to see a Russian/UK stack in Yak in rd 1 with the bomber and Indian ftr if they weren’t needed elsewhere.  This can be problematic since it requires Japan to protect those trns in Japan sz, otherwise you can say goodbye to those trns.  And this in turn may lessen the attack on Pearl, which may open the door for a US counter.

Don’t buy a complex on J1… go 2 trans and 3 inf or advance build of 3 trans.

Furthermore Darth says it all…

Uhm,

Yea, Germany CAN expect those kinds of results.  However.  That’s only round 1.  And most Russian players I know will dump 8 Infantry in Karelia, not 3 infantry, 3 armor.  That’s going to significantly change things.

Add to that a British purchase of a carrier and a transport (and an infantry, but that may just be me) with american fighters landing on it for defense and odds are, you won’t be attacking the NOR fleet again.

Assuming all attacks went well for Germany, the absolute worst case for UK is this:

You save 30 ipc and have ~56 to spend on UK 2.  This allows you to drop a safe fleet with the US buying an AC trns on US 1.

UK will counter the Ger BB with ftrs/bom, the US can hit any other lingering subs.  So it is UK 1 and Germany is all but eliminated from Afr.  UK can still pull the Ind troops if they want to really make sure about Afr.

So on UK 3 the Allies have an unsinkable fleet with 2 AC (1 US, 1 UK) plus planes and 4 trns (1 US, 3 UK) to use.  At this point you can immediately dump infantry into Kar from London if Russia is desperate.  But Russia should be able to hold their own for 4-5 rds easy, so the UK and US can hit Nor on Rd 3, continue build up and add troops in rd 4 and then force Germany to defend WE, EE, and Ger.

By Rd 4 both the UK and US should be getting a combined 12 inf (UK + US) to Norway give or take.

I don’t think Germany can compete, they may be able to hold out for a long time but they certainly can’t advance so the Allies are free to shift any resources they need to Moscow from Kar to assist against Japan.  Now it is just a numbers game and that favors the Allies.

I think you are forgetting to add in the American fleet in NOR with the British fleet.

It’s 2 Transports, 2 Fighters, Carrier in NOR on Germany 2.  You COULD still sink it, but man are you going to pay a high price.  Say you have 4 fighters and a bomber on Germany 2 (that’s pretty good considering how you made your attacks, you might even have less.  But let’s pretend you only lost one.)

That gives you barely a 40% chance to sink everything there, and a 50% chance of being reduced to only a bomber in the process.

That’s going to severely hamper your ability to keep up the attack and replacing Transports for England and America is pretty simple.  If you want to be honest about it.  8 IPC vs 12 IPC and the Allies still have their fighters/bombers where as Germany does not.

If your playing with no Russia Restricted, then I go 3 tanks/3 infantry and build up for a smash on EE providing the German player has no more than 11 Infantry. If Germany cant leave at least 3 planes in EE on turn one. I would seriously consider the attack. The point is to weaken the aggressive German player from doing too many thing at once

For germany i always buy tranny for Medd and rest infantry. That protects my fleet ( i either take gibrater and egypt which saves it from UK bomber)

With japan i rather have floating ships than factories. I buy 3 tranny and 2 men. 16 IPC can carry 4 men, where 15 ipc can build 3 men in asian factories.  Eventually this horde of infantry needs “iron in the glove” and i only build that factory in India so i can shuck tanks to africa or Russia quicker. But that would be after i am established in Asia.

He already said Russia Restricted though, IL

In Classic, IC’s are generally a much later purchase (a way to get INF to the front fast for a final push on Moscow) due to original IC’s being unlimited production.

Russia Restricted at least ameliorate the lop-sidedness of the game.
I think a suitable bidlevel would be 9-10 , given RR.
A bidlevel of 9-10 is not such a bad balance, I think.

But it was years since I played Classic, so I might be a bit off here.

I think RR pushes it down to 18 or so from 23.

T,

By about UK3, the UK and USA will both have operational invasion fleets of of about 3-4 UK trns and 4 US trns.

US can then just march 8 inf to ECan for transport on US4, US5, and on and on.

After 2-3 rounds of UK and US inf reinforcement from Fin/Nor into Kar,  Ger will not have enough income to produce a valid attack from EEur.

UK can also add 2-3 ftr in Kar for defence.

UK4 starts the Big Hurt by spending $3 and invading Spain.  Then US reinforces w/ inf & fighters.

The combined fleet can now hit S.Eur.

A massive UK invasion can at least weaken W.Eur for the US5 follow-up.

Ger has too many places to defend at this time and would need to retreat, exposing Ukr and E.Eur to USSR invasion.  Even worse, UK and USA can overwhelm the minimal defenses where Ger retreated from E.Eur. opening the Rus armor to attack S.Eur.

The point is, eventually, with $80+/round on ground and naval transport purchases, the Allies can exploit multiple attack vectors into greater Europe.  ~$380+ spent by the Allies vs <$200  spent by Ger over 5 rounds.  This automatically puts Ger on defense, and Ger has no mathematical way of minimizing the attack vectors short of taking Kar on Ger1, which is often a risky gamble.

yea Spain is the trick that make the allies have more options. They just hold Karelia and attack places like Spain, while the Germans can only hold out for so many turns. Japan does much better in this version IMO. And their attack is more focused and easy to implement. I dont see KJF working too well in this version. I have seem many attempts all fail ( i was Japan).

I wish people went back to this version more. It has not lost its charisma.Its still a great game.

Germany is the Anvil and japan is the hammer.

Japan should be taking everything on the map 3-6 IPC a turn for like 3-4 turns.

J1 3 tranny , 2 inf

Take Hawaii by invasion ( 2 infantry) and bring everything except the bomber.

Bomber and fighter and 1 man go after the far Chinese territory

the rest including 2 planes and men goto the other Chinese territory

NCM planes to Manchuria and land some island guys in FIC. Pick up island guys as much as possible

J2 you build equal men and tranny in order to max out the capacity of transports. Calculate possible men from islands. dont waste money on tranny that wont have a job to do or buy extra men that you don’t need when they can be brought from islands

On j2 Hawaii fleet attacks Australia and on turn 3 it goes to India. On j2 you may leave behind the Australia tranny to take Zealand.

A factory should be bought by turn 3-4 depending on Russia. Place it in India ( first choice) or FIC (second choice)

Bring the AA gun over to protect from bombers.

Also forgot you need to leave one tranny on j1 in the japan zone because the 3 tranny build will protect it against the US sub that may retreat from combat. Ill take 4 ones against 1 2 anyday. That tranny brings over 2 men to protect manchuria (along with your planes)

This is all from memory from last century but it never failed me.

You can’t possibly attack Rus with Japan in 4 rounds… If you have optimal results with the axis it still takes you 3 turns to get to novo! You can’t bring enough inf to think of taking Rus on round 4…

For your plan to buy airforce or ships with germany, its doomed… Russia walks over Germany with ease, because the UK will keep wiping out German ships, then the US keeps dropping inf in Eur… => Game over!

For your other question about going 2 trans 3 inf as initial buy for Jap:
You need cannon fodder and inf provide just that. You can’t take Russia with just tanks… Give a mathematical example here. 2 tanks take out one inf, 3 inf take out one tank on def => Russia spends 9, Japan 10. So you gonna lose a lot of value with just buying tanks.

I think a bid of 12-15 was enough for RR. Because you don’t lose ukr and Manch on round one, so 12-15 is sufficient…

My optimal Ger 1 move with RR (no bid) would be:
Lab sz: tran vs fig (WEu)
UK sz: 2 trans, bb and a sub vs 4 fig and a sub
Gib sz: BB vs 1 sub and bomb
Jor sz: sub vs tran and bb
Egypte: 1 inf and 1 arm vs 3 inf and 1 arm.
Then pray you only lose 1 fig, its the best you can hope for…