AARe - KGF ideas

I agree that tech is the way to go in AARE for the Allies. If anything, Germany is even easier than ever to contain. I think that AARE actually hasn’t balanced the KGF/KJF strategies; what it has done is changed the face of the game by making it more economic oriented and less dominated by heavy land war. I agree AARE has walked slightly in the direction of a more balanced game in the sense that the Axis can more feasibly shut down the game due to victory cities, but otherwise Germany still looks to be the logical target.

My personal twist on KGF is mass destroyers with the US. I use Russian Rail to maintain Karelia, and use the UK to maintain Africa and deal with a light-moderate German fleet, while the US builds up to 10 or so destroyers in the first two turns, building 1-2 thereafter while defending against Japan by building land units, and bombards the snot out of the Germans. I see destroyers as the unlimited economic attack.

Eventually Germany can no longer do anything except sit there wait to die, while Japan is slowly trying to make its own economic attacks and push Russia with banzais.

Rockets can be countered with Jet Fighters.  Not well, mind you, but it can.  I think in this case, it would have been wise for Japan to fire off fighters with Jet abilities to Europe ASAP with Germany protecting her fighter stash and getting Jet Fighters (Shared tech) as well.

This would shield some, or all, of the allied rocket attacks.

I agree with this counter. If I suspect a massive coordination of Allied SBRs/rockets due to their round 1, I would take tech advantage as Japan’s 2nd NA (Banzai always first, no deviation in any case) for Jet Fighters, and make an attempt to help the Germans stave it off. While Jet Fighters is not a perfect counter, it is much better than doing nothing.

@Bean:

I agree that tech is the way to go in AARE for the Allies. If anything, Germany is even easier than ever to contain. I think that AARE actually hasn’t balanced the KGF/KJF strategies; what it has done is changed the face of the game by making it more economic oriented and less dominated by heavy land war. I agree AARE has walked slightly in the direction of a more balanced game in the sense that the Axis can more feasibly shut down the game due to victory cities, but otherwise Germany still looks to be the logical target.

I find it interesting to watch Enhanced relative newbies make strategic beliefs only to be swayed into a different belief after a few more games.

I still maintain that it is harder to just KGF/KJF in Enhanced, especially when Germany (and Japan) can realize it is coming and utilize the NAs effectively to counter the allied triple team.

Give it some more time (a.k.a. game play)

yeah Jen saw things differently after a while
in the future Bean would probably find new depth in AARE gameplay too

but
I believe the economic comment about AARE will remain

due to gurantee tech and shared tech discount
rockets became a better deal
being more likely to be around, the “per turn” economic limit of OOB is amplified

jets isn’t a great counter
and if strategy/situation didn’t ask for fighters, its then too expensive a counter
sort of unaffordable to buy fighters too when you are under rockets fire

The best counter to rockets is… rockets

I, personally, would like to see Jet Fighters get a modification.

Jets no longer counter rockets per fighter (they still counter bombers though).  Instead, the AA Gun gets a shot at 2 or less per rocket if it is present. (3 if England has Radar)

This will help Germany more then the allies because it will let Germany keep her fighters where they are needed for defense/attack.

Meanwhile, I’d also like to see Rockets changed so each gun can fire on the same IC if they want too, but they have to be in different zones so you can’t just build 5 AA Guns in England and pound Germany into submission. :P

The rational is that you can send hundreds of bombers at the same complex, why not hundreds of rockets?  They’re SMALLER then bombers!

As for winning, I think the first 4 rounds is make or break for the axis.  After that, the allies are just so overwhelming that there’s almost no chance for a come back.

@Cmdr:

As for winning, I think the first 4 rounds is make or break for the axis.  After that, the allies are just so overwhelming that there’s almost no chance for a come back.

The Axis have to recognize the type of game that the allies are trying to run.  If they’re in it for a longer economic game, then the axis have to push hard to get the 10 VCs.

If not, games can go 12+ rounds and still have no winner determined yet (been there, done that)

I’ve actually won with the Axis before the end of America’s turn.  So it’s not impossible for the Allies to lose before the game even starts.

yeah rocket is better counter to rocket then jet
too bad its not a strong counter either

the damage per turn per IC limit and the one attack per turn only per IC limit
the location makes things hard to

I guess the best place for Germany is to setup AAs at GER SEU BLK

why 4th round?
is that the time it takes to setup up 6 AAs aiming at Germany? :wink:

I disagree.

If England has Radar and Rockets and America has Rockets and Russia has rockets, Germany’s rockets will be all but useless.  They’re fun to fire off, but not overly effective.

However, 7 or 8 Jets scattered between S. Europe and Germany can end all 6 allied rockets without any damage to Germany.

If you are talking one to one, then yes, rockets vs rockets is better.  But you have to take into consideration that there are actually a potential of 6 rocket attacks on Germany meanwhile Germany is probably going to cap out at 3 rocket attacks scattered between England and Russia.  (Unless America takes S. Europe or the allies build Norway and W. Europe ICs while Germany produces more AA Guns.  Not a very common situation, IMHO.)

On another sub-topic, I’d like to say I’d want to see the Victory Conditions slightly adjusted so that the Axis need 11 VCs to win and the allies 12.  I’ve had 3 games now where I won with the Axis before America’s first turn. (America cannot liberate anything on it’s first turn, so we didn’t even BOTHER to play it.)

@Cmdr:

On another sub-topic, I’d like to say I’d want to see the Victory Conditions slightly adjusted so that the Axis need 11 VCs to win and the allies 12.  I’ve had 3 games now where I won with the Axis before America’s first turn. (America cannot liberate anything on it’s first turn, so we didn’t even BOTHER to play it.)

The rules will not be changed due to doofus-like allied play.

Do these players know that it’s 10 VC’s to win?

Also, what 10 VCs are you getting on the first round to win?

Germany takes Caucasus and Karelia
Japan takes India and Hawaii

Bid 9 IPC, 3 Infantry in Ukraine.  Russia avoids the combat allowing you to bring a lot of firepower to bear on Caucasus. (Transport, + Ukraine + tanks from E. Europe and Balkans and the stuff on the transport, not to mention fighters and bomber if you need it.)

Japan takes Tokyo Express and hits Hawaii with 2 infantry, armor, fighter and sends 3 or 4 fighters down to India with 2 infantry from FIC. (Assuming Transport dies in SZ 59.)

It’s not 100%, but each battle has about an 87% chance of winning, if I remember the stats right from frood.

That means the Allies have to scramble right out the door to stop an Axis victory.

@Cmdr:

Germany takes Caucasus and Karelia
Japan takes India and Hawaii

Bid 9 IPC, 3 Infantry in Ukraine.  Russia avoids the combat allowing you to bring a lot of firepower to bear on Caucasus. (Transport, + Ukraine + tanks from E. Europe and Balkans and the stuff on the transport, not to mention fighters and bomber if you need it.)

Japan takes Tokyo Express and hits Hawaii with 2 infantry, armor, fighter and sends 3 or 4 fighters down to India with 2 infantry from FIC. (Assuming Transport dies in SZ 59.)

It’s not 100%, but each battle has about an 87% chance of winning, if I remember the stats right from frood.

That means the Allies have to scramble right out the door to stop an Axis victory.

Take Western Russia light and/or hit Belo, landing a ftr(or two) in india and the allies should hold onto 10 VCs.

BTW, who the HELL gives 9 to the Axis?

That bid is WAY too high.  2 units max for the axis.

Yea, 2 units USED to be okay for the axis, until the allies started learning how to play and exploit any axis offensive.

Dunno if hitting Belo is going to help you against this.  And if you are diverting Tanks and Fighters to India right off, I think that still gives a major advantage to the axis.

Not saying it’s unwinnable by the allies by any stretch.  Just saying the allies have GOT to keep in mind the first round loss to the axis and have GOT to endeavor to prevent it.  (That might be a British landing in Karelia to liberate it on Round 1, or dragging extra infantry to India with the transport in SZ 35 instead of doing something else with it.)

@Cmdr:

Not saying it’s unwinnable by the allies by any stretch.  Just saying the allies have GOT to keep in mind the first round loss to the axis and have GOT to endeavor to prevent it.  (That might be a British landing in Karelia to liberate it on Round 1, or dragging extra infantry to India with the transport in SZ 35 instead of doing something else with it.)

Yes, if the allies have already lost 2 VC’s on G1, they BETTER be smart enough to realize they need to hold either India or Australia.

Again, doofus Allied play will not force the rules to be changed.

Yes, but how do you propose they secure India or Hawaii on UK 1?

They cannot use American or Russian forces at this time, since Russia has already gone, and Japan still needs to go before America.

With that in mind, a suicide attack on India and Hawaii is winnable in well over 85% of the time (each, obviously winning both is less probable around 73% give or take.)  Still, that’s a 3 in 4 chance to win before America’s turn.

So, honestly, the ONLY way to stop this is to make sure you lose ONLY Karelia or Caucasus at the end of Russia’s turn.  Losing both is not really an option since there’s almost nothing that the allies can do from that point to stop the Axis from winning short of hoping the dice gods shine benevolent love and devotion upon them. (At which time, the Axis are probably over extended, IMHO.)

My dice sim gives only a 67% chance of taking Hawaii
and if the UK player can not take back karelia, they could take RAF and add another FTR to India, giving a Japanese suicide attack of 2 inf, 4 ftr, bmr against 4 inf, 2 ftr, aaa.

My dice sim gives only 41% of that happening.

so 67% * 41% (winning both) looks pretty long shot to me (28%)

Again, doofus Allied play will not cause the rules to be changed.

Yea, they COULD hold by sacrificing their National Advantages and position on the board to do it.

Japan does not have to sacrifice anything to make a viable threat. (I have 73% in Hawaii with 2 Inf, Arm, Fig vs 2 Inf, Fig using Frood, 87% with 4 Fighters, Bomber and 2 infantry, higher if the transport in SZ 59 is not lost because you can use a battleship and two more infantry.)

@Cmdr:

Yea, they COULD hold by sacrificing their National Advantages and position on the board to do it.

Japan does not have to sacrifice anything to make a viable threat. (I have 73% in Hawaii with 2 Inf, Arm, Fig vs 2 Inf, Fig using Frood, 87% with 4 Fighters, Bomber and 2 infantry, higher if the transport in SZ 59 is not lost because you can use a battleship and two more infantry.)

Wouldn’t ‘sacrificing’ ONE NA be worth continuing the game?  (as if RAF is a ‘wasted’ NA selection).

Also, the allies should never be is such a position, the allies should never lose Caucasus on round 1.  So the allies already have already sacrificed their board position prior to UK1 if Germany will retain 5 VCs by end of UK’s turn.

I think you are not using Frood correctly.  Do you have it marked that there is an AA gun in India and that 1 inf must survive (you have to take the land you know)

My test at Frood confirms my dic sims value of only 41% chance of winning.
I also confirmed a 67% chance of the Hawaii win too via Frood.

Also, no way that the extra 2 units can make it even if the DD fails to sink the sz59 tpt since a UK a/c can always park itself in sz36 UK1, blocking the tpt’s route to india.

I have 1 ground unit must survive and AA Activated.

Only thing that DRAMATICALLY alters the results, and is a move that does NOT force you into a strategy with England is to take Radar.  Now you can expect to lose 33-66% of your aircraft instead of 16-33%.

Yeah radar is so powerful.
Besides end game move, when would you ever bring air units to a radar territory?