Breaking off the War at Sea Planes from stands and using them for Revised ?

@barnee

From my previous setup, the following changed highlighted are (DELETED NEW)

Victory Conditions:
Axis: Control 8 European Victory Cities or Control 6 Pacific Victory Cities, either one for a Complete Round of Play following the capture of the last necessary Victory City
Allies: Control 4 of [Berlin, Tokyo, Rome, Paris, Shanghai, Warsaw, Hong Kong, and Manila] for a Complete Round of Play following the capture of the last necessary Victory City

-SOVIET UNION (30 IPCs)
Russia: Major Industrial Complex, Air Base, 4 Infantry, 1 Mechanised Infantry, 2 Artillery, 2 Tanks, 2 AAA, 1 Fighter, 1 Tactical Bomber
Novgorod: Minor Industrial Complex, Air Base, Naval Base, 2 Infantry, 1 Artillery, 2 AAA, 1 Fighter, 1 Tactical Bomber
Volgograd: Minor Industrial Complex, 4 Infantry, 1 Mechanized Infantry, 1 Artillery, 1 Tank
Karelia: 2 Infantry
Archangel: 2 Infantry, 1 Tank
Vologda: 1 Infantry
Tambov: 1 Infantry
Caucasus: 2 Infantry
Urals: 1 Infantry, 2 Mechanized Infantry, 2 Tanks, 1 Tactical Bomber
Novosibirsk: 4 Infantry
Samara: 2 Infantry
Kazakhstan: 2 Infantry
Evenkiyskiy: 2 Infantry
Timguska: 1 Infantry
Yenisey: 2 Infantry
Yakut S.S.R.: 1 Infantry
Buryatia: 3 Infantry
Sakha: 2 Infantry, 2 Mechanized Infantry, 1 Artillery, 1 Tank, 2 AAA
Amur: 3 Infantry
Siberia: 3 Infantry
Soviet Far East: 1 Infantry
Iraq: Control Marker, 1 Mechanized Infantry
Northwest Persia: Control Marker
Persia: Control Marker, 1 Tank
Eastern Persia: Control Marker
Sea Zone 5: 1 Submarine
Sea Zone 115: 1 Submarine, 1 Cruiser
Sea Zone 127: 1 Destroyer

-EMPIRE OF JAPAN (45 IPCs)
Japan: Major Industrial Complex, Air Base, Naval Base, 6 Infantry, 2 Artillery, 1 Tank, 4 AAA, 1 Fighter, 2 Tactical Bombers, 2 Strategic Bombers
Siam: 4 Infantry
Korea: 2 Infantry, 1 Fighter, 1 Tactical Bomber
Okinawa: 1 Infantry, 1 Fighter
Formosa: 1 Fighter
Paulau Island: 1 Infantry, 1 Mechanized Infantry, 2 Strategic Bombers
Iwo Jima: 1 Infantry, 1 Mechanized Infantry, 1 AAA, 1 Tactical Bomber
Caroline Islands: Air Base, Naval Base, 2 Infantry, 1 AAA, 1 Fighter
Kiangsu: Control Marker, 2 Infantry, 4 Artillery, 1 Fighter, 1 Tactical Bomber
Philippines: Control Marker, Air Base, Naval Base, 2 Infantry, 1 Artillery, 1 Fighter
Kwangtung: Control Marker, Naval Base, 1 Infantry, 1 Fighter, 1 Tactical Bomber
Malaya: Control Marker, Naval Base, 1 Infantry, 2 Artillery, 1 AAA, 1 Fighter, 1 Tactical Bomber
Shan State: Control Marker, 1 Infantry, 2 Artillery, 1 AAA
Kwangsi: Control Marker, 2 Infantry, 1 Artillery
French Indo China: Control Marker, 1 Infantry, 1 Mechanized Infantry, 1 Tank
Sumatra: Control Marker, 2 Infantry
Java: Control Marker, 1 Infantry
Celebes: Control Marker, 1 Infantry
Jehol: Control Marker, 2 Infantry, 1 Artillery
Shantung: Control Marker, 2 Infantry, 1 Artillery
Kiangsi: Control Marker, 2 Infantry, 1 Artillery
Borneo: Control Marker, 1 Infantry
Manchuria: Control Marker, 4 Infantry, 1 Mechanized Infantry, 1 Artillery, 1 Tank
Guam: Control Marker, Air Base
Dutch New Guinea: Control Marker
New Britain: Control Marker, 1 Infantry
New Guinea: Control Marker, 1 Infantry
Wake Island: Control Marker, Air Base
Gilbert Islands: Control Marker, 1 Infantry
Sea Zone 6: 1 Transport, 1 Submarine, 1 Cruiser, 1 Aircraft Carrier (Carrying 1 Fighter and 1 Tactical Bomber), 1 Battleship
Sea Zone 17: 1 Transport, 1 Destroyer
Sea Zone 19: 2 Submarines
Sea Zone 20: 1 Transport, 2 Destroyers
Sea Zone 31: 1 Destroyer, 1 Cruiser, 1 Battleship
Sea Zone 33: 2 Submarines, 1 Destroyer, 1 Aircraft Carrier (Carrying 1 Fighter and 1 Tactical Bomber)
Sea Zone 35: 1 Cruiser, 1 Aircraft Carrier (Carrying 1 Fighter), 1 Battleship
Sea Zone 37: 1 Transport, 1 Destroyer, 1 Cruiser
Sea Zone 42: 1 Aircraft Carrier (Carrying 1 Fighter and 1 Tactical Bomber)

-UNITED STATES (52 IPCs)
Eastern United States: Major Industrial Complex, Air Base, Naval Base, 2 Infantry, 1 Artillery, 2 AAA, 1 Tactical Bomber
Western United States: Major Industrial Complex, Air Base, Naval Base, 4 Infantry, 1 Mechanized Infantry, 2 Artillery, 1 Tank, 2 AAA, 1 Fighter, 1 Tactical Bomber, 1 Strategic Bomber
Central United States: Major Industrial Complex, 2 Infantry, 4 Mechanized Infantry, 1 Tank
Hawaiian Islands: Air Base, Naval Base, 1 Infantry, 1 Artillery, 2 AAA, 2 Fighters
Midway: Air Base, 1 Infantry, 1 Fighter
Alaska: 2 Infantry
Iceland: 1 Fighter
Solomon Islands: 1 Infantry, 1 Tank, 1 Fighter, 1 Tactical Bomber
Brazil: Control Marker
Eire: Control Marker, 1 Strategic Bomber
Sea Zone 10: 2 Transports, 1 Destroyer, 1 Aircraft Carrier (Carrying 1 Fighter), 1 Battleship
Sea Zone 25: 1 Aircraft Carrier (Carrying 1 Fighter and 1 Tactical Bomber), 1 Battleship
Sea Zone 26: 1 Transport, 1 Submarine, 1 Destroyer, 1 Cruiser
Sea Zone 29: 2 Submarines, 1 Aircraft Carrier (Carrying 1 Fighter and 1 Tactical Bomber)
Sea Zone 49: 1 Transport, 1 Destroyer, 1 Cruiser
Sea Zone 64: 1 Destroyer
Sea Zone 101: 2 Transports, 1 Battleship

-CHINA (12 IPCs)
Suiyuyan: 3 Infantry
Shensi: 1 Infantry
Szechwan: 1 Infantry
Hopei: 4 Infantry, 1 Artillery, 1 Fighter
Kweichow: 3 Infantry
Hunan: 3 Infantry
Yunnan: 6 Infantry

-GERMAN REICH (51 IPCs)
Germany: Major Industrial Complex, 6 Infantry, 4 Artillery, 3 AAA, 1 Fighter, 2 Strategic Bombers
Poland: 2 Infantry, 1 Tank, 1 Tactical Bomber
Holland Belgium: 2 Infantry, 1 Artillery
Norway: 3 Infantry, 1 Fighter
Denmark: 1 Infantry, 1 Tank
Western Germany: Major Industrial Complex, Air Base, Naval Base, 2 Infantry, 1 Artillery, 4 Tanks, 3 AAA, 2 Fighters, 3 Tactical Bombers
Greater Southern Germany: 4 Infantry
Slovakia Hungary: 2 Mechanized Infantry, 2 Tanks
Romania: 2 Infantry, 1 Tank, 1 Fighter
Alexandria: 1 Infantry, 1 Mechanized Infantry, 1 Tank
France: Control Marker, Minor Industrial Complex, Air Base, 1 Infantry, 2 Mechanized Infantry, 1 AAA, 1 Tactical Bomber
Morocco: Control Marker, 3 Infantry
Normandy Bordeaux: Control Marker, Minor Industrial Complex, Naval Base, 2 Infantry, 1 Tank, 1 Fighter
Finland: Control Marker, 2 Infantry, 1 Artillery
Vyborg: Control Marker, 1 Infantry
Baltic States: Control Marker, 2 Infantry, 1 Tank, 1 Fighter
Eastern Poland: Control Marker, 3 Infantry, 1 Artillery, 1 Tank
Bessarabia: Control Marker, 1 Infantry
Bulgaria: Control Marker, 1 Infantry, 1 Artillery
Crete: Control Marker, 1 Tactical Bomber
Belarus: Control Marker, 4 Infantry
Western Ukraine: Control Marker, 2 Infantry, 1 Fighter, 1 Tactical Bomber
Ukraine: Control Marker, Minor Industrial Complex, 4 Infantry, 1 Tank, 1 AAA
Smolensk: Control Marker, 2 Infantry, 1 Artillery, 1 Tank, 1 Tactical Bomber
Bryansk: Control Marker, 2 Infantry, 1 Mechanized Infantry, 1 Artillery, 1 Tank
Rostov: Control Marker, 3 Infantry
Sea Zone 99: 1 Transport
Sea Zone 103: 2 Submarines
Sea Zone 105: 1 Battleship
Sea Zone 113: 1 Submarine, 1 Cruiser
Sea Zone 118: 2 Submarines
Sea Zone 124: 2 Submarines

-UNITED KINGDOM (29 IPCs for Europe, 13 IPCs for Pacific)
United Kingdom: Major Industrial Complex, Air Base, Naval Base, 3 Infantry, 1 Mechanized Infantry, 1 Artillery, 1 Tank, 4 AAA, 3 Fighters, 1 Strategic Bomber
Egypt: Naval Base, 1 Infantry, 1 Artillery, 1 Tank
Quebec: Minor Industrial Complex, 1 Infantry, 1 Tank
New Brunswick Nova Scotia: Naval Base
Iceland: Air Base
Scotland: Air Base, 1 Infantry, 1 Mechanized Infantry, 1 AAA, 1 Fighter
Gibraltar: Naval Base, 1 Tactical Bomber
Malta: 1 Infantry, 1 AAA, 1 Fighter
Trans-Jordan: 2 Infantry
Anglo Egyptian Sudan: 1 Infantry
Union of South Africa: Minor Industrial Complex, Naval Base, 1 Infantry, 1 Mechanized Infantry
British Columbia/Western Canada: 1 Infantry
Suriname: Control Marker
Ethiopia: Control Marker
Italian Somaliland: Control Marker
Sea Zone 71: 1 Transport
Sea Zone 92: 1 Battleship
Sea Zone 97: 1 Cruiser, 1 Aircraft Carrier (Carrying 1 Tactical Bomber)
Sea Zone 98: 1 Transport, 1 Submarine, 1 Destroyer
Sea Zone 106: 1 Transport, 1 Destroyer
Sea Zone 109: 1 Transport, 1 Cruiser, 1 Battleship
Sea Zone 110: 1 Transport, 1 Cruiser, 1 Aircraft Carrier (Carrying 1 Fighter)
Sea Zone 111: 1 Transport, 1 Submarine, 1 Destroyer, 1 Battleship
India: Major Industrial Complex, Air Base, Naval Base, 6 Infantry, 1 Mechanized Infantry, 2 Artillery, 4 AAA, 1 Fighter, 1 Tactical Bomber
Kwangtung: Naval Base, 2 Infantry
Malaya: Naval Base, 3 Infantry
West India: 1 Infantry
Burma: 2 Infantry, 1 Infantry, 1 Fighter
Shan State: 2 Infantry
Sumatra: Control Marker
Celebes: Control Marker
Sea Zone 38: 1 Battleship
Sea Zone 39: 1 Transport, 1 Destroyer, 1 Cruiser, 1 Aircraft Carrier (Carrying 1 Fighter)
Sea Zone 44: 1 Cruiser
Sea Zone 45: 1 Cruiser

-EMPIRE OF ITALY (18 IPCs)
Southern Italy: Minor Industrial Complex, Air Base, Naval Base, 6 Infantry, 2 AAA, 2 Fighters
Northern Italy: Major Industrial Complex, 2 Infantry, 1 Artillery, 2 Tanks, 2 AAA, 1 Strategic Bomber
Sardinia: 1 Infantry
Sicily: 1 Infantry
Libya: 1 Infantry, 1 Mechanized Infantry, 2 Artillery, 1 Tank
Albania: 1 Mechanized Infantry, 1 Tank
Tobruk: 3 Infantry
Western Ukraine: 1 Infantry
Rostov: 1 Artillery, 1 Tank
Southern France: Control Marker, Minor Industrial Complex, Naval Base, 2 Infantry
Algeria: Control Marker, 1 Infantry
Tunisia: Control Marker, 1 Infantry
Yugoslavia: Control Marker, 2 Infantry
Greece: Control Marker, 2 Infantry
Alexandria: Control Marker, 1 Infantry, 1 Tactical Bomber
Sea Zone 87: 2 Submarines
Sea Zone 93: 1 Transport, 1 Submarines, 1 Destroyer, 1 Cruiser
Sea Zone 94: 1 Submarine
Sea Zone 95: 1 Transport, 2 Cruisers, 1 Battleship
Sea Zone 96: 1 Transport, 1 Destroyer

-ANZAC (10 IPCs)
New South Wales: Minor Industrial Complex, Naval Base, 1 Infantry, 1 Mechanized Infantry, 1 Artillery, 2 AAA
Western Australia: 2 Infantry
Queensland: Air Base, Naval Base, 2 Infantry
New Zealand: Air Base, Naval Base, 1 Infantry, 2 Fighters
Egypt: 2 Infantry
Malaya: 1 Artillery, 1 Tank
Burma: 1 Infantry, 1 Artillery, 1 Tank
Sumatra: 2 Infantry
Celebes: 2 Infantry
Sea Zone 54: 1 Battleship
Sea Zone 62: 1 Transport, 1 Destroyer, 1 Cruiser
Sea Zone 63: 1 Submarine, 1 Aircraft Carrier (Carrying 1 Fighter)

-FRENCH REPUBLIC (0 IPCs, Capital Under Occupation)
French West Africa: 1 Infantry
French Central Africa: 1 Infantry
French Equatorial Africa: 1 Infantry
Syria: 1 Infantry, 1 Artillery, 1 Tank
United Kingdom: 1 Infantry, 1 Fighter, 1 Tactical Bomber
Sea Zone 72: 1 Destroyer
Sea Zone 98: 1 Cruiser
Sea Zone 109: 1 Cruiser
Sea Zone 110: 1 Destroyer

One problem with 1914 is warfare on the western front. It usually just dissolves into two giant stacks going at it in one territory, and the allies win that battle 90% of the time because they can get units there faster. One reason this happens is because people aren’t aggressive enough. Also, its too easy for people to combine their forces because flanking maneuvers aren’t very deadly in Axis and Allies. So I would make on slight adjustment to the moving out of contested territories rules:
When a unit moves out of a contested territory they may not battle. They may still move into contested territories containing units belonging to their power, but they may only reinforce not battle there. Also, I was really intrigued by @Arreghas idea about contested territories. You can see his forum here: https://www.axisandallies.org/forums/topic/34163/1914-contested-territories-an-interesting-tweak

@Argothair:

Hey ClassicDude,

We agree on the narrow issue that China shouldn’t be knocked out quickly and easily by Japan, but we may need to agree to disagree about the rest. It sounds to me like we’re trying to accomplish different goals. You seem mainly interested in encouraging players to re-enact the historical Japan vs. China conflict, where Japan made deep investments in the China war all through WW2, and didn’t get much to show for it. I’m more interested in making sure that all players have a variety of interesting and balanced strategies available to them – which might include a heavy war in China, or it might focus instead on Indonesia, Siberia, India, or a naval showdown with the Americans.

I think it’s very possible that given your group’s play style, your rules may work great for you and your friends – if America is in the habit of ignoring Japan, then you may as well buff up China to the max to keep Japan busy. In my playgroup, though, we often see Kill Japan First openings, where the USA builds a large navy and attacks the Japanese Empire with it starting on turn 3 or 4. If Japan has to spend most of its income fighting China, then Japan won’t have a realistic chance to even hold off the US Pacific Fleet, let alone defeat it. We do in fact sometimes invade mainland China, because Japan is usually too heavily fortified to take with an early transport fleet – the USA will only have enough cash left over to build one or two loaded transports in the opening, because the rest of their money has to go toward building up a fleet that can overwhelm the Japanese boats and planes.

Cheers,
Argo

Yes I think that this is something we can agree on. However I am still willing to test out your ideas.

As usual knp great minds think alike. I allow 1 capacity for airborne assault and 2 capacity for ncm.

I just skimmed over this topic so I haven’t super analyzed costs. But fwiw, I’m not for limiting special units when I set out my HRs generally I just adjust for cost or abilities.  So let’s say someone wants to attempt a massive airborne assault they’re going to need money.

@Black_Elk:

I think we’d probably only need to go down to 12 ipcs for the cost of the factory to make it a viable purchase option in a place like Africa. Or if there was a 2 ipc space in Australia, a factory there might be feasible if they only cost 12. At 15 the only players that have much use for them are Japan and the USA.

For a while now, I have definitely been in favor treating IPC values more like “abstract game points” than actual industrial production, so I really don’t have an issue with concepts like increasing or decreasing the value of specific territories, if this serves the gameplay.

In the post above I tried to confine my suggestion to the one area of the gamemap that has been a consistent disappointment for me and that is the valueless Pacific. I know there are people who believe that these territories can be made “valuable” in other ways, but I just don’t see it. Until they have a value of 1 ipc, I think they will be ignored. USA has no strong incentive to take them, and Japan has no strong incentive to hold onto them. Just making them worth 1 would make all the difference.
That would put 6 ipcs into contention, in areas that the USA can reach early on, so the first 4 rounds of the game aren’t so boring to play as USA.

I picked the 5 Japanese territories that I feel should have a value of 1, due to their historical significance in the war. And Midway too, because it’s Midway! That’s 6 territories that are currently worthless, which would be brought into play. The island of Formosa is less important to me.

If I had my way, every territory on the map would have a minimum value of 1, but I would be happy enough if the main Pacific islands that were contested during the war had a value of 1. Basically I was trying to find a simple way to keep the game at a similar economic scale, but with a more compelling Pacific distribution.

I tend to agree with wittmann, USA feels pretty cash strapped compared with Japan. I think there are two ways you could approach it, either more total IPCs or more starting ground units in North America (so you don’t have to buy them.) I think either approach to balance might work.

I would like to see Hawaii at 2 as well, just to give the territory more potential significance as a factory location, or as a target/springboard for Japan against North America. I’m not looking for huge changes to the map, I think we could accomplish a lot just in the range of +1 or -1 ipc in a few specific places :)

If you add 3 IPCs to USA, rising the starting money to 45 IPCs, maybe you can give 31 IPCs to Japan. How?

+1 IPC to Hawaii, Midway and Alaska while keeping Central US at 6 IPCs.
(less change on the original board, simpler to make the calculations).
Now, Formosa can rise to 1 IPC. (All “No IPC” Islands have a worth of 1 IPC.) Simpler to calculate.

If you think USA need another 1 IPC (46 IPCs) gives 1 to Greenland. And all 0 IPC islands will have their value.

Ok, you’ve learnt me some new things !
Thanks for that. Your NOs look fairly good.

Genocide:
-10 for killing the last remaining unit of any power, including POWs.

Conspiracy with the enemy (e.g. Germany and USSR standing by their nonaggression pact despite a phony declaration of war):
Germany gets -3 for every turn after round 4 that Germany has not attacked any Soviet controlled territory or naval unit and has not placed any warships in z125.
USSR gets -3 for every turn after round 4 that USSR has not attacked any German controlled territory or naval unit and has not placed any warships in any German convoy raid zones.

Plunder:
Anytime you capture an enemy’s capitol and seize their national treasure (gold, money, works of art, secret files, execution of intellectuals, etc.) you incur -5 war crimes points.

if you want to be able to move through enemy submarines in non-combat move, I am ok with it

yes they can pass thru. no special dispensations.

if you want to be able to retreat into a sea zone occupied by enemy submarines, I am not sure about that (as mentioned)
if so I rather we let defender retreat into ANY adjacent sea zone

They can retreat to ANY sea zone not occupied by enemy surface warships ( so they can enter SZ with subs or transports)

From now on subs and transports don’t do anything unless its their active turn.

Of course you can send ASW units and try and kill them by hunting them down.

also,have some new ideas for subs which are extremely simple, listed under AA50 house rules.

I want to make a new AARHE version for AA50 once we fix these semantic issues and clarifications.

I have a map that’s the best map you have seen. Id say its at least as good as the new map and done in the same style. Its 98% done. adding artistic items. I will release this and alot of files in a few weeks time.