Breaking off the War at Sea Planes from stands and using them for Revised ?

@FranceNeedsMorePower France only needs a infantry in Normandy.

I love these rules. It makes the game insanely dynamic & cutting edge from the first turn to the last. Requires a more difficult starting setup for Japan (I’ll publish that eventually) & a joined UKP & ANZAC economy (aka the Pacific Commonwealth, or Cmm).

Even so, give the US an extra 10 IPCs/round to keep up. Turns the game into a firefighting session for the Allies until the US comes in swinging.

Definitely write the tokens down on blank cards!!

APPENDIX 3: VICTORY TOKENS

There exist eight sovereignty tokens and forty victory tokens: fifteen in the Pacific theater, fifteen in the European theater, and ten wildcard “global” tokens.

A3.0.1 Sovereignty Tokens The Axis powers begin the game holding six of eight sovereignty tokens. The last two will be claimed after the fall of France. Note: Sovereignty tokens count for neither Axis bonus income nor Axis victory, but at least six must be held to win the game, and at least four to not lose. A3.0.2 Token Bonus Income During each Axis Collect Income phase, gain 1 extra IPC per held victory token. If, during an Allied turn, the Axis lose a token (victory or sovereignty), that Allied nation immediately receives a 3 IPC bonus. A3.0.3 Limited Objectives (War Aims) Only 12 victory tokens are in play at a time; the initial tokens are those indicated with a star on the card. These represent stated war aims in each theater. At the of the German and Japanese turns, the Axis may choose to substitute a token in play for another from the same deck (Global, Pacific, European), representing shifting goals during the course of the conflict. Note: Germany may not swap Pacific tokens nor may Japan European. Optional (Blitz Mode): Before the start of the game, the Axis players choose which tokens will be in play (select 5 European, 5 Pacific, and 2 Global) & permit no substitution thereafter. Optional (Secret Blitz): The same as above, but do not reveal the tokens selected. A3.0.4 Axis Victory Conditions To win as the Axis, you must hold six sovereignty tokens AND the same five theater-specific victory tokens for a full round. If these conditions are met, you must audibly inform all Allied players of such. If the conditions are still met (without the clock being reset) one round later, the Axis claim victory. Note: Global victory tokens count towards both theaters. A3.0.5 Allied Victory Conditions The Allies win if the Axis hold fewer than four sovereignty tokens for a full round. If these conditions are met, you must audibly inform all Axis players of such. If the conditions are still met (without the clock being reset) one round later, the Allies claim victory. Optional: If a turn limit is being used, the Allies win by default at the end of the last round. A3.1 SOVEREIGNTY TOKENS The Edo Token: Hold Tokyo. The Imperial Token: Hold Japan, Manchuria, & Korea. The Roman Token: Hold Rome. The Republican Token: Hold Northern Italy, Southern Italy, & Sicily. The Berliner Token: Hold Berlin. The Reich Token: Hold Western Germany, Germany, and Greater Southern Germany. The Parisan Token: Hold Paris. The Vichy Token: Hold Normandy/Bordeaux, France, and Southern France. A3.2 GLOBAL VICTORY TOKENS The Empire Token ★: Let there be no UKE or Cmm battleships on the map. The British Token ★: Hold the United Kingdom, Eire, and Scotland. The Bolshevik Token: Let there be no Soviet units on any originally-Soviet territories. The Maple Token: Hold any Canadian territory. The Panama Token: Hold Central America. The South America Token: Control one originally unaligned neutral territory in South America. The California Token: Have a battleship or aircraft carrier in SZ10. The Washington Token: Have a battleship or aircraft carrier in SZ101. The America Token: Take any one of the Western United States, the Central United States, or the Eastern United States. The Economy Token: Axis powers’ combined income (on the income tracker) is greater than 120 IPCs. A3.3 PACIFIC VICTORY TOKENS The Colonial Token ★: Control Jehol, Shantung, Kiangsu, & Anhwe; and let there be no more than 5 Chinese units in any territories adjacent to them. The China Token: Hold all originally-Chinese territories. The Coastal Token ★: Control SZs 6W, 19, 20, 36, & 37 & all territories touching them. The ABDACOM Token ★: Let there be no Allied CA, CVs, or BBs in SZs 37 & 41-45. The India Token: Hold Burma, India, and West India. The Island Token ★: Hold the Philippines, Guam, Wake Island, Midway, and all originally-Japanese islands. The North Pacific Token: There are no Allied surface warships and no Allied islands within two seazones of SZ 6W. The Honolulu Token: Own an ArmB in Hawaii. The Melanesian Token: Have at least one land unit on each of New Britain, the Solomons, and New Hebrides. The Sydney Token: Hold New S. Wales and let there be no Allied surface vessels in SZ 62. The Australia Token: Let there be no Allied land units on an Australian territory (W. Australia, N. Territory, S. Australia, Queensland, NSW, and Victoria). The North Front Token: Control Korea & Manchuria and let there be fewer than 6 Soviet land units adjacent to Japanese-held territories. The Siberian Token: Let there be no Russian infantry on originally-Mongolian or Russian territories on the Pacific board. The Dominance Token ★: Have at least twice as many capital ships (battleships and/or carriers) as the Allies on the Pacific board. The Expansion Token: Let Japan control 8 original (may not have been built since the start of the game) operational naval bases. A3.4 EUROPEAN VICTORY TOKENS The Atlantic Wall Token ★: Let there be no Allied units in continental Europe (excluding Russia) & have at least four land units on four of five: Normandy, Belgium, W. Germany, Denmark, and Norway. The Balkan Token ★: Have at least two infantry on each of Yugoslavia, Romania, Albania, Bulgaria, and Greece. The Norway Token: Germany can claim its Iron NO and has a transport in SZ 125. The Molotov Token ★: Let there be fewer than 2 Soviet units in any Soviet-controlled territory adjacent to German units. The Russia Token: Capture or disable any three originally-Soviet industrial complexes. The Kremlin Token: Control Moscow and three of the five territories adjacent to it. The Ural Token: Control Novosibirsk and from there, be able to trace a cooperating land route back to Berlin. The North Africa Token ★: Control Malta and let there be more Axis (not Vichy) ground units than Allied ground units in North Africa. The Mediterranean Token: Close either the Suez Canal or the Strait of Gibraltar, AND either (a) control all Mediterranean islands (Malta, Cyprus, and Crete, Corsica/Sardinia, and Sicily) or (b) let there be no Allied vessels in the Mediterranean. The Wolfpack Token ★: Have warships in each of SZ 117, 118, 107, and 108. The Blockade Token: Have a surface warship in SZ 109. The Kriegsmarine/Regia Marina Token: Have any 3 battleships or aircraft carriers not in either the Baltic Sea or the Mediterranean. The Iberia Token: Hold Portugal, Spain, and Gibraltar. The Scandinavia Token: Control the Baltic and every territory adjacent to it. The Ottoman Token: Control the Black Sea and every territory adjacent to it.

@axis_roll:

We diminished the NO’s impact by making them only worth $4 each.

For the UK NO, our thought was Japan gets away with a 4 of 6 territories, why can’t the UK NO be like that as well:

“Gain 4 IPCs if Allied powers control at least four of the following territories: Eastern Canada, Western Canada, Gibraltar, Egypt, Australia, and Union of South Africa.”

Ah yes, that is also a good idea. Thanks for the feedback. I’ll edit my original post :-)

@Argothair:

Hey ClassicDude,

We agree on the narrow issue that China shouldn’t be knocked out quickly and easily by Japan, but we may need to agree to disagree about the rest. It sounds to me like we’re trying to accomplish different goals. You seem mainly interested in encouraging players to re-enact the historical Japan vs. China conflict, where Japan made deep investments in the China war all through WW2, and didn’t get much to show for it. I’m more interested in making sure that all players have a variety of interesting and balanced strategies available to them – which might include a heavy war in China, or it might focus instead on Indonesia, Siberia, India, or a naval showdown with the Americans.

I think it’s very possible that given your group’s play style, your rules may work great for you and your friends – if America is in the habit of ignoring Japan, then you may as well buff up China to the max to keep Japan busy. In my playgroup, though, we often see Kill Japan First openings, where the USA builds a large navy and attacks the Japanese Empire with it starting on turn 3 or 4. If Japan has to spend most of its income fighting China, then Japan won’t have a realistic chance to even hold off the US Pacific Fleet, let alone defeat it. We do in fact sometimes invade mainland China, because Japan is usually too heavily fortified to take with an early transport fleet – the USA will only have enough cash left over to build one or two loaded transports in the opening, because the rest of their money has to go toward building up a fleet that can overwhelm the Japanese boats and planes.

Cheers,
Argo

Yes I think that this is something we can agree on. However I am still willing to test out your ideas.

However we can take the blitz out of it.

@barney:

yea I’m a little concerned this would boost the defensive values of fleets even more. I also added DK’s cruiser gets one AA shot which is another defensive bonus.
I wonder how much super subs would counter that? I’m trying not to tweak things price wise at the moment but I may eventually incorporate your entire cost structure.

Good explanation on the destroyers vs EC’s. Having a fighter that hits at 4 could be appealing though.

Good stuff Baron

If I introduced AAA Naval capacity at such low cost (Advanced Shipyard) it would be in a combined arms bonus and not for a single unit.
Maybe just up to 2 AAA preemptive shots against 2 planes when 1 Battleship and 1 Cruiser are protecting a Fleet Carrier, and only this kind of unit, not any Escort Carrier.
Each have their specific mission, Fleet Carrier have a more consistent AA batteries and CAP (Carrier Air Patrol) while Escort Carrier groups were assign Anti-Sub Mission.
So, to get Naval AAA buy all the three warships: Battleship, Cruiser, Aircraft (Fleet) Carrier.
In counterpart, these costlier warships units would still be vulnerable against Subs while Escort Carriers and Destroyers will be vulnerable against planes but much able to defend against Submarines.

@Black_Elk:

@Baron:

I’m more inclined to treat it exactly as an AAA unit: @1 against up to three planes.
After all, it is a known concept in ground combat adapted to Naval Battle and it requires 3 warships type, the number 3 is obviously on the board.
IC’s AAA seems too powerful and unrealistic: a defense @1 against infinite number of planes.
Defending Carriers are already much better than offensive ones. Anti-Air is providing an additional defense.

@Black_Elk:

Well the anti air for battlegroup concept seems cool. I think the hope was that we could find a combined arms that just had units pairing 1:1. That one requires a pairing of 3 different units 1:1:1, but seems like it could encourage Cruiser purchases.

Not only Cruiser but also Battleship buying incentive.
Another reason to not give IC’s AAA capacity: you want to defend against more than 3 planes, buy another Cruiser and BB to join another Carrier.
I’m pretty sure it can change some buying from Destroyers and Subs to Cruiser and Battleship.

It still cost 12+16+20= at least 48 IPCs (68 with 2 Fgs) to get this additional defensive abilities.

Maybe this concept can be simply extended to each combo of BB+Cruiser gives 1 AAA capacity as long as there is a Carrier to protect.

So 2 BBs + 2 Cruisers + 1 Carrrier will provides an AAA against up to 6 planes.

All this!  :-D

I think something along these lines could potentially bring both Cruisers and Battleships back into the mix as a purchasing consideration, and is relatively simple.

Of the combined arms proposed thus far, this one doesn’t bust the opening round combats. It would increase the swing on fleet defense making all out air assaults against a stacked battle group more risky. Right now the all air option is pretty powerful vs navies, this would give at least some way to counter that, but only at the cost of more expensive warship units, and somewhat diminished flexibility in other ways, since you have to keep the ships together to get the boost.
I still think a different bombardment bonus or marine concept could work for cruisers and battleships, or a maneuverability bonus for cruisers specifically, but both of those would surely have an influence on the opening balance.

@Vareel:

some units just don’t seem to have any nitch.

’

All the units in AAP40 have a niche, you just have to think about it more. Some are not as sexy as they used to be (tanks, battleships) and some are certainly bought less by certain players, but in general this is representive of history.

This set of unit stats is the best to date.

Why should crusiers be able to be traded with fighters?

the tac bomber rules already give them a clear role and make alot of sence except they are simpler that yours.

I do like your rules for infantry supporting tanks on the defence, except I dont like tanks costing five. tanks are big things that take alot to produce they should be expensive and players should not be able to build stacks of them (unless they are the russian player, in AAE40 the USSR should not be able to buy mech inf and instead can buy tanks at 5.)

the debate was never settled. i said why i didn’t think it should be liberty ships are no one rebuted. i never thought US DD’s were on the table, it was Essex CVs (cheap because rushed into production and fast) that I thought had the lead spot.