AARHE 1939 map and rule files

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thats fine except when you say “when attacker has only air units” you do know that these are not allowed meaning air units cannot attack land units alone w/o matching 1 to 1 land units…

The reason why defender can retreat to a combat zone where attack only has air units is that because there won’t be territory control change. Hence no issues.

Now, regarding air-only attack I thought you agreed already just this same page.
Lets go again…

Air-only attack and air-only defence should be allowed as per OOB.
AARHE has the rule that you must retreat air units when the enemy has land units and you don’t.

Land units can’t kill air units but it won’t be too powerful. Because the air units only get to fire at the land units for one cycle.

Otherwise you have to create yet another air mission to model an air attack. This is one cycle only and I think its simply enough.

==== I don’t understand this… we already have this and its called Counter Air mission. Thats the military term for air to air combat. WE don’t need any changes because what your talking about is already in the rules.

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Why main round? they are preemptive attacks ( for the most part) and must be resolved before because loses done fire back. thats why its done before the main attacks.

1st cycle
Undetected submarines fire in opening-fire and selectively.
Detected submarines fire in main-round.

2nd+ cycle
All submarines detected, fire in main-round

==== ok thats fine. THAT was not clear in your last post. I thought you meant ALL rounds they fight in main round. Right… detected means they fire in main round. good.agreed

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====yes and thats where i got it. That guy is right. 12 ipc bombers (or anything less than 15 will
promote massive SBR raids) which is good.

SBR is no where as bad as OOB.
AARHE promote SBR.

*rewards sending multiple air units to combat
*lets you SBR all territories

=====ok so your position is? No change in cost for bombers?

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==== well not really… they don’t perform ‘air evacuation’ and transport planes take over the first duty. So they just SBR, GI, and attack land units (surviving ID rolls and possible air combat)

Its not called ‘air evacuation’ but AARHE allows

attacker to retreat from amphibious assault  via transports, converting to INF
defender to retreat via transport planes, converting to INF

===== no no this is not a Vietnam game. No retreating land units on transport planes. This was not a mode of retreat in WW2. Converted units only can either retreat to territories ( legal) or if invasion they reembark on transports and i think we have a NA allowing for Japanese to go into destroyers ( 1 inf per ship)

Transport plane
Come to think of it. When we made setups for all the optional units, we left out Transport Plane.
I say add one next to each BMR.
Germany, UK, E.US, and Japan.

==== yes its a mistake. I think that should be fine, none for Italy and Soviets? The Soviets dropped Airborne in early 1942 after German assault on Moscow failed. Perhaps Germany gets two and Soviets get one so its equal? 3 and 3…?

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OK what value do you think they should be? 12 sounds right… but perhaps 13
With a better understanding of SBR (as above) you should find 14 IPC reasonable.

Sending single BMRs to SBR big territories with VC+IC…yes you can still gambling like OOB.
But sending multiple BMRs on SBR…is now a viable strategy.

=========== yes lets do 14 IPC for bombers… now we have 8,10,12,14 for plane costs… i like this symmetry

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every nation must get one free roll minimum. Use the free dice roll info. from our rules. The math is just a function of adjusting hit point…

Yeah at least one free die is more realistic.
I wonder about Italy though. Maybe they shouldn’t get a free die?

============= yes every nation is viable for technology. We cant leave anybody out of this.

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the second group is better…but please use our OOB numbers for calculations.

AARHE values. I am sure you didn’t mean “OOB” lol.

Nation                  Free Dice      Purchasable
Germany              2                3
Italy                    1                1
Japan                  1                2
Soviet Union        1                1
United Kingdom    1                1
United States      2                4

the maths…for die hitting on 2

free die
Germany/US 2@2, 0.66 box/turn, 4.5 turns for minor tech
Others 1@2, 0.33 box/turn, 9 turns for minor tech

Now, I think the purchasable could be relaxed…

Nation                  Free Dice      Purchasable
Germany              2                4
Italy                    1                2
Japan                  1                2
Soviet Union        1                2
United Kingdom    1                2
United States      2                4

hmm….well this is easy to remember, except lets make it this:
Nation                  Free Dice      Purchasable
Germany                  2                  4
Italy                      1                  2
Japan                    1                  3
Soviet Union            1                  3
United Kingdom        1                  2
United States          2                  4

what you think? also what do the numbers look like on rounds per tech?

tech push
Germany/US, 20IPC/turn, 6@2, 2 box/turn, 1.5 turns for minor tech
Japan/USSR, 15 IPC/turn, 4@2, 1.33/turn, 2.25 turns for minor tech
UK/Italy, 10 IPC/turn 3@2, 1 box/turn, 3 turns for minor tech

this seems reasonable. you agree?

Thats fine. We can get rid of it.
It was introduced it at one stage and the italic text referenced Stralingrad.
But in the end its not common.

For Airborne Drop, should the transport planes be subject to Anti-Air or dogfighting? And should this it before or after unloading the airborne infantry?

Stalingrad had air supply drops. only a few wounded got back and that was when it was possible to land which was before the envelopment was really strong.

Herman’s air drop was a total unmitigated failure worse that Dunkirk or any of Goering’s other blunders.

on the second issue, Yes the ID rolls as usual and any air combat (one round) is performed. And of course any DAS missions called from other territories do fight air units on the next round when they fly in.

I think we are done, except we need to check the NA’s to make sure they don’t violate the rules or overlap the rules that already exist.

I playtest and it seems the Soviets are too weak against Germany by 1942. As you know they are at 24, while the Germans are at 50-52.
The Soviets compensation is lend lease, but i think they need a few more ipc so that it looks like the Harrison numbers.

from Harrison:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_production_during_World_War_II

Soviet Union 359 366 417 359 274 305 362 343

Germany: ( includes Austria and France)
Austria   24   27   27     29     27      28      29      12
France  186 199 164 130 116 110 93 101
Germany 351 384 387 412 417 426 437 310

so in 1942 Soviets were 274
Germany was at 417+116+27= 660

I guess this is reflected in the ratio of 24 vs 51 so its historical, so perhaps it should stay…but i think some kind of “siberian army” option should exist for the Soviet player considering the NA that allows Japan to attack the Soviets. This would prove a major issue for the Soviets who plan on defending themselves only against Germany.

I propose an optional rule as follows:

Siberian Army:
Historically, the Russian position in the fall of 1941 was critical. German forces were approaching Moscow, encircling Leningrad, and generally overrunning and destroying all remaining European Soviet military power. The Russians however had an ace up their sleeve in the form of their Asian armies. These tough Siberian units had been held in Asia to guard against any aggressive moves by the Japanese. However, Russian intelligence confirmed that the Japanese had made the decision to attack the US and avoid conflict with Russia. This allowed Russia to transfer these formidable forces west. These units arrived in the Moscow area just as the German forces were appearing on the outskirts of Moscow. These forces, along with the Russian winter, finally stopped the Nazi advance.
    At the beginning of the second Russian turn following a German invasion or immediately following a Japanese attack, the Russian player rolls a die. The result determines the size and composition of the Siberian reinforcements.

Die Roll: Siberian Reinforcements:

1 8 x inf, 4 x tank, 4 x arty, 1 x fighter
2 8 x inf, 3 x tank, 4 x arty
3 7 x inf, 3 x tank, 3 x arty
4 7 x inf, 3 x arty
5 6 x inf, 2 x arty
6 6 x inf

The resulting reinforcements are immediately placed in Moscow. If Moscow has been captured, the reinforcements are placed in any original Russian territory still under Russian control.

And the long awaited General cards:

http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=c2fi3lhkxim&thumb=4
http://www.mediafire.com/upload_complete.php?id=ocogvjgdd9t

http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=ddo98znj2tu&thumb=4
http://www.mediafire.com/upload_complete.php?id=l4ly7bljkz7

http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=38dnxjchpmb&thumb=4
http://www.mediafire.com/upload_complete.php?id=4ytjy3ydxnt

I can make more but basically each nation chooses one card per turn and you cant use the same card again until all the other cards of that nation have been cycled ( played) once.

I could make one for China, but they suck

france at least wont be in the game for more than 2 turns. The card they have is a joke anyway. Gamelin was a loser and Degualle was no better.

Tech dice
Yeah should be fine now. Just needed UK restriction relaxed.

========== Restriction? what do you mean?

Airborne Drop
Ok. To make it subject to ID and dogfighting hits…
The wording is simple. The transport plane attacks the territory and does so at transport plane combat values if its a bomber.
On attack its 0 combat and 0 for dogfight. So you would retreat transport planes after one cycle. Realistic.

And the airborne infantry is offloaded before combat.

====ok fine.

Siberian Army
I think you showed me similar like before.
My comment remains that “8 INF + 4 ARM + …” is just a bit too much.
This is not a small bonus like other NAs.

Wording is too long. Our other NAs are typically 4 sentences (2 for background + 2 for rule.)
This one would need to be longer. But a bit too long as the moment.

You also made this other Siberian rule.
Soviet ‘Siberian’ Army
All Soviet forces located in Buryatia S. S. R. are frozen in place until her 5th turn. All other forces can be moved as desired. The Soviet player also receives 12 IPC to be spent freely for additional units at this time.
I guess you want the new rule to replace that?

====== but isn’t that 12 IPC thing a NA? If NA’a are random and if Japan gets to attack Soviet Union, then the Soviets are bust.

I just copied the entire rule as it basically appears in my rules for another game. The idea is just a framework for the optional rule in case the Soviets are too weak. Of course the numbers can be changed or we just adjust that 12 IPC to increase it depending on balance.

Playtesting

You’ve been playtesting? Oh. Post all the 1939 setups and artworks.

==== huh? you have these. I posted them a long time ago.

Generals Cards
Yeah China don’t need any.
Chang held Shanghai for 3 months against Japan’s prediction of 3 days. But made him lose most of China’s real divisions before the war.

By the way I hope thats just for preview. Cos its not print quality. Text was blurry.

============ no its just a jpeg. The file is vector. Actually if you print it will look much better. try it.

Air unit hits
Besides ID, only air superiority (in land combat) gets selective rolls now.
Wonder if we can get simplify that too.

A. Would planes bomb tanks and artillery easily but have difficult killing infantry division?
B. Would tanks and artillery be almost always the higher priority targets over infantry divisions?

A: They always go after armor or any large moving target. Infantry are much harder
B: Yes, so i guess air power will be very important in this game.

If yes, maybe air unit hits in land combat air superiority can be back to OOB unselective. Hits allocated on tanks, artillery and mech before infantry and airborne.

++++ yes right. its too powerful. the defender must basically select a hard target, before soft target. make that the rule, or air power is too strong

Air only attack
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==== I don’t understand this… we already have this and its called Counter Air mission. Thats the military term for air to air combat. WE don’t need any changes because what your talking about is already in the rules.
No I am talking about air units attacking alone in normal combat.
Why air units can’t attack alone?

Air units can defend alone against land units (until forced to retreat or destroyed all attackers, which makes it one cycle only). I think attacking should be given the same too.

===== air units need supporting ground based units to help out. When planes fly over they cause the defender to stay in place and wait until the planes are finished. Then they come out of their holes.  Planes of course do kill lots of exposed units but they work better with land units to cause disruption against the enemy and pin him down, while tanks and men take his positions and over run them. Air units attacking alone and w/o chance of being killed is way too strong. thats the 1/1 rule and its rationale.

Die Roll:  Siberian Reinforcements:

1  6 x inf, 3 x tank, 3 x arty, 1 x fighter
2  5 x inf, 2 x tank, 2 x arty, 1 x fighter
3  4 x inf, 1 x tank, 1 x arty
4  3 x inf, 1 x tank, 1 x arty
5  2 x inf, 1 x arty
6  2 x inf

ok how bout this?

Siberian Army
Oh yeah thats right. Its for 1939 rule not national advantage.
But trim the paragraph anyway.

6 x inf, 3 x tank, 3 x arty, 1 x fighter = 49 IPC (w/ INF@2 IPC)
Thats not a guard against Japanese aggression. Thats enough to take China fom Japan’s hands all together. Its also Germany’s income for a whole turn. On the other hand 2 x INF is a joke.
I am thinking max 35 IPC on top. Like  5 x inf, 3 x tank, 1 x fighter. At least 2 x inf, 2 x arty on the bottom.

Lastly, the condition. Seems a bit funny at the moment. Why on Japan’s first attack on Russia the Siberian Army travels back to capital?

well its just allocated as the soviet player wishes. I will redo it.

Artwork
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==== huh? you have these. I posted them a long time ago.
I’ve only seen the setups via certain versions of the 1939 map.
I still haven’t seen the artwork(s) with “1.3” written on it, besides the watermark on the rule file.

====thats what i got 1939 set ups with 1.3 on them.

Air unit 1-to-1 to land units
Just dont’ know if its necessary to restrict it to 1-to-1. You must retreat when you have no land units left anyway.

====yes but in combat you may lose land units bringing it under the 1 to 1 threshold. thats why its needed so you don’t have 3 fighters and 2 infantry

Using a 1-to-1 rule…
If you have 1 land unit and 3 air units left, are we gonna force the other 2 air units to retreat?
If you have 3 land units and 2 air unit left, are we not allowed to retreat more than 1 land units?

1. yes
2. yes is the short answer , except no more air units can roll then you have matching land units. They can be around for combat loses, but they don’t roll if they exceed land units.

Die Roll:  Siberian Reinforcements:

1  4 x inf, 3 x tank, 3 x arty, 1 x fighter
2  4 x inf, 3 x tank, 2 x arty, 1 x fighter
3  3 x inf, 2 x tank, 2 x arty, 1 x fighter
4  3 x inf, 2 x tank, 1 x arty
5  2 x inf, 1 x tank, 1 x arty
6  2 x inf, 1 x tank, 1 x arty

ok how bout this?

its activated and immediately placed following any Japanese invasion
its activated on the second turn following a European Axis attack on the Soviet Union. Forces are placed in Moscow in that case.

Siberian Army
Thats still 45 IPC. But if you think its realistic then thats fine.

Die Roll:  Siberian Reinforcements:

1  4 x inf, 3 x tank, 3 x arty, 1 x fighter
2  4 x inf, 3 x tank, 2 x arty, 1 x fighter
3  3 x inf, 2 x tank, 1 x arty, 1 x fighter
4  3 x inf, 2 x tank, 1 x arty
5  2 x inf, 1 x tank, 1 x arty
6  2 x inf, 1 x tank, 1 x arty

ok how bout this?

its activated and immediately placed following any Japanese invasion
its activated on the second turn following a European Axis attack on the Soviet Union. Forces are placed in Moscow in that case.

on average this is not 45 ipc considering Soviet infantry at 2 ipc anyway. Its an optional rule and would repair any foreseeable axis advantage. i made one last adjustment  so use this rather than the other one

Artwork
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====thats what i got 1939 set ups with 1.3 on them

If you are talking about watermark, I faintly recall there was a version with a setup table.
Can you post it again? (or tell me which link)

England: http://www.mediafire.com/?69molfbbm49
France: http://www.mediafire.com/?a2gn9zjnv9o
Soviet Union: http://www.mediafire.com/?1cxln4wmww2
USA: http://www.mediafire.com/?5zvmmb1mhkz
China: http://www.mediafire.com/?811z2rmzsnj
Germany: http://www.mediafire.com/?9mgmgqig2w1
Italy: http://www.mediafire.com/?dyjwjstbgdz
Japan: http://www.mediafire.com/?aztmnmdextv

front cover page: http://www.mediafire.com/?fe0nxygwjmv

Illustrator file for General cards: note you need to drag them from the symbol tray
http://www.mediafire.com/?5wjmnnx0ztl

Map file (current)– i made some IPC changes. I will need to fix some of the totals with the set up sheets.
let me know what you think of changes…

http://www.mediafire.com/?46y4q241acj

Air unit 1-to-1 to land units
Dogfighting wouldn’t be restricted, so it would be worded under “Air Superiority”.

=== no of course not thats separate. So you can bring in extra planes, except if they wont get to roll out for land combat even if they win air superiority as long as their numbers exceed the land units.

Air Superiority
When only one side has air units at the beginning of combat cycle, air units fight with normal combat values when matched 1-to-1 with a friendly land unit. Excess air units fight with normal combat values decreased by 2. Hits are allocated on tank, artillery, or mechanized infantry before infantry or airborne infantry. Fighter increases tank’s attack by 1 on a 1-to-1 basis.

=== two things. create a category of hard and soft targets rather than listing all the units individually explain somewhere that in terms of combat causalities wherever that rule applies that players are selecting hard targets ( armor, etc)  before soft ( infantry, airborne) or vice versa.

secondly,  Air units fight aerial combat using defensive values. They do not use attack values. This must be clear in the rules.

Remember the attack is only relative in terms of damage to land targets… the conduct of air attacks always utilizes the defense value for both attacker and defender.

Siberian Army
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second turn following a European Axis attack
Precisely, if Germany attacks USSR on turn 3, which turn do you place it in Moscow?
turn 4 or 5?

+++++ it is available at the start of the second Soviet turn following any German Italian invasion, or Immediately following any attacks by Japanese forces. So don’t list it as a specific turn, but the idea is the Soviet need to wait one turn

Artworks
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Map file (current)– i made some IPC changes. I will need to fix some of the totals with the set up sheets.
Yeah we’ll have to edit the setup anyway. Like the Tibet IC.
So nothing holding up back. We can call it “4.0” now. wink

===== yes but just look at the changes (france is at 15 IPC they don’t get 17 or whatever it was.)

Map

Should we release map info with the map itself? (separate from rules file)
In the appendix we’ll just have an intro paragraph for each map. (OOB, Italy, and 1939)

===== all the files together is one large folder of 1) maps 2) rules w/ set ups for 1942/1939, 3) all player aids

We could then release the “4.0” rules file very soon.
And release 1939 map later. (I mean we still have to consider the setups.)

I will look at your latest 1939 map. No illustrator at this computer.

=== we need to update the LHTR to 2.0 rather than 1.3

Air unit 1-to-1 to land units

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create a category of hard and soft targets rather than listing all the units individually
Yeah we could have a table. Do you really a table?

==== no it does not need this.

something like:

Hard: Armor, Artillery, SS Panzers, Shock Armies, SPA, Mechanized Infantry

Soft: Infantry, Airborne Infantry, etc

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explain somewhere that in terms of combat causalities wherever that rule applies that players are selecting hard targets ( armor, etc)  before soft ( infantry, airborne) or vice versa.
To confirm you know what I meant…

Air units’ hits are now unselective with victim player allocating the hits, hard targets before soft targets.

1. Hits from Hard targets go against other Hard targets then soft
2. Hits from Soft targets go against other soft targets then soft
3. Air units hits are allocated against Hard targets then soft

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secondly,  Air units fight aerial combat using defensive values. They do not use attack values. This must be clear in the rules.
Remember the attack is only relative in terms of damage to land targets… the conduct of air attacks always utilizes the defense value for both attacker and defender.
No you are confused.

Aerial combat don’t use attack NOR defence value.
It uses the “dogfight” values you made.

==== i am sorry thats what i meant. they attack at dogfight values correct. no changes.

Fighter
Normal    Attack 3 Defence 4
Dogfight    Attack 2 Defence 3

Bomber
Normal    Attack 4 Defence 1
Dogfight    Attack 0 Defence 1

Fighter-bomber
Normal    Attack 3 Defence 2
Dogfight    Attack 1 Defence 2

all this is perfect.

also as per your PM please provide link thats bad. Ill fix it.

Siberian army
Ok now write the new wording for me to paste into the file.
By the way, all your 1939 rules had no historic text.
So this one doesn’t need any.

============== I just cut copied from the source. The historical notes are backround. They were not meant to be in the rules. All that historical explanation is ‘fluff’… just post the rules. the history was to give you some backround.

Map

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Map file (current)– i made some IPC changes. I will need to fix some of the totals with the set up sheets.
let me know what you think of changes…
http://www.mediafire.com/?46y4q241acj

um…you posted the wrong map I think
this one has the old Africa with all the small states

and France is not the 15 IPC you said
its added to 11 IPC, while the table says 17 IPC

===== ok ill fix it.

Do what I do: prefix filename with date
I think you confused yourself with all these “copy copy copy” style filenames

LHTR 2.0
LHTR 2.0 seems to be just clarification as usual. (besides NA, which are replaced by AARHE ones)
Have you taken a good look at LHTR 2.0 yet?
Maybe we’ll ask Jen or whoever that has played a bit of LHTR 2.0.
Anyway I write “LHTR 2.0” in page 1 now.

===== yes just to clarify an interpretation of the rules that may not be covered by AARHE. We then have the most current reference in that case.

Hard and soft targets
Instead of listing it all along with all the optional units…I think simpler to just say infantry and airborne infantry are allocated last for tank and air hits.
Like for aerial combat we don’t list out all the air units…just say transport planes are allocated last.

=========== whatever system works… AS LONG as you don’t repeat every unit many times when describing hit allocations and use few words to describe the ‘idea’ .

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2) Hits from Soft targets go against other soft targets then soft
No. 1 and No. 3 is true. No. 2 is not true.
Infantry hits are allocated as victim wishes. It doesn’t have to go against infantry first.

==== yes thats true, but who is going to allocate a tank when they can allocate an infantry. I get what your saying though.

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also as per your PM please provide link thats bad. Ill fix it.
I’ve edited my post in that thread.
The two non-working links are missing “_”.
Manually edit or just copy the new links in my edited post.

http://home.exetel.com.au/cometo/20071123 AARHE_standard_with_setup.png
http://home.exetel.com.au/cometo/20071126 AARHE_technology.png

http://home.exetel.com.au/cometo/20071123_AARHE_standard_with_setup.png
http://home.exetel.com.au/cometo/20071126_AARHE_technology.png

====ok ill get it done.

http://home.exetel.com.au/cometo/20071123_AARHE_standard_with_setup.png

THIS LINK DOES NOT WORK.

i FIXED THE OTHER LINK, but this still does not work.

http://www.mediafire.com/?brnwhoyzvui
http://www.mediafire.com/upload_complete.php?id=9zmbrmxl35l

this is the current map file link