Ukraine bid

Honestly, if you are going to put 5 IPC in Ukraine, a better use of that money would be a tank.  Punch = 3 vs AA Gun against 2 fighters having a punch of 2.  The tank is also an offensive weapon.

Woo hoo! An extra IC for Russia!

If there was an IC in Russia you’d see the Med full of allied ships and Ukraine in Allied hands as priority #1.

The advantage of the AA is that it would kill Ftrs if it hit, which is better than a tank. But it only fires on defence and only in the opening fire step.

Nah, Russia doesn’t need the IC in Ukraine.  Likewise, Germany does not need it.  If you want an IC for Germany, put it in W. Europe.

I think Norway’s about the only safe place for an IC in Europe. Building one in WE forces you to defend it at all costs when you may not want to. I could see it being good if you wanted naval dominance but that’s not a good plan for Germany.

What would an IC in Norway do for Germany?
It would basically force Germany to build 3 Units in Norway each turn sucking away resources and eventually UK and USA will overpower it anyway IMO.

Sorry, I meant the only safe place for ANYONE to build an IC in Europe. Although the Allies can build one in WE once they have a solid beachhead. But that’s a game-finishing move.

@Frood:

Sorry, I meant the only safe place for ANYONE to build an IC in Europe. Although the Allies can build one in WE once they have a solid beachhead. But that’s a game-finishing move.

Ooh yes in that case I agree!
I can’t imagine any other place to build one under any circumstances I’ve seen.

@Jennifer:

Honestly, if you are going to put 5 IPC in Ukraine, a better use of that money would be a tank.  Punch = 3 vs AA Gun against 2 fighters having a punch of 2.  The tank is also an offensive weapon.

I have to agree 100% with Jen on this.  INF, 1 ARM is a FAR superior bid for Ukraine than 1 INF, 1 AA.

And to add to her analysis above…
1.  The AA Fires only once, so you roll the 2 ones only in round 1, then they are silent
2.  The ARM will likely fire TWICE before it is killed, possibly more.
3.  There will NOT be an AA gun to deter Germany using their FIGs and BOM for the counter-attack.

Just FYI:

With a 1 INF, 1 ARM bid, Russia on average FAILS TO TAKE UKRAINE, only 2 FIG remaining.
With 1 INF, 1 AA bid, Russia on average takes with 3 ARM, 1 FIG.

$5 IPC more dead Russians with the ARM over the AA, plus the loss of $3 of income, and no need for Germany to spend ARM on a Ukraine 1 Counter…

Used to be you could deter me from using fighters just by having an AA Gun present.  Anyone who has played me since knows that is no longer the case.  The only way you are going to deter me with an AA Gun is if Russia ONLY has her two fighters for offense left.  And if that’s the case, Russia’s probably lost anyway.

And, for the record, I’d rather put an infantry in W. Russia and an Armor in Ukraine.  Make Russia pay heavily for both pieces of land.

Now for me the opposite is true… My Axis AA guns are fine to ignore if you want to run an SBR campaign against me.  I can;t hit a BOM with an AA to save my life.

But send Fighters over my AA guns, and I will probably shoot down all of them (or maybe leave 1 to fly home as a warning).

I use that psychological tactic all the time. I didn’t know it had a name until now.

@ncscswitch:

@Jennifer:

Honestly, if you are going to put 5 IPC in Ukraine, a better use of that money would be a tank.  Punch = 3 vs AA Gun against 2 fighters having a punch of 2.  The tank is also an offensive weapon.

I have to agree 100% with Jen on this.  INF, 1 ARM is a FAR superior bid for Ukraine than 1 INF, 1 AA.

And to add to her analysis above…
1.  The AA Fires only once, so you roll the 2 ones only in round 1, then they are silent
2.  The ARM will likely fire TWICE before it is killed, possibly more.
3.  There will NOT be an AA gun to deter Germany using their FIGs and BOM for the counter-attack.

Hey you, the one posting as Switch – who are you and what have you done to the REAL Switch?  I know for a FACT that the REAL Switch NEVER agrees with Jenn on anything!

:wink:

Switch and I are very alike when it comes to tactics. :P  All I have to do is convert him for politics and he’ll be a better man! :)

Anyway, AA Guns are not scary anymore.  If you put an AA in Ukraine, I’ll probably still attack it because the odds of success are not drastically different.  You have less then a 3% chance to shoot down both Russian planes and only a 17% chance to get one of them.  Meanwhile, I have good odds of taking Ukraine and getting an AA Gun to shoot at your planes, which means, you’ll have to use tanks or divert an extra plane from somewhere else.

First few rounds, Germany cannot afford a mistake or bad dice.  Well, no one can in the first three rounds, but especially Germany and Japan.  IMHO, 90% or more of the games are decided by the dice in the first three rounds of play.

Again I have to agree with Jen…

The risk of an AA being used against 2 FIGs of Russia’s, while not the best thing in the world, is offset by the fact that Germany starts off with 7 aircraft, and that a captured AA gun is more likely to inflict harm to Germany than it is to inflict harm to Russia’s paltry Air Force.

Adding an AA gun to Russia is a GOOD thing, which is why so many people work their India AA to somewhere in Russia.

A Ukraine AA fires at 2 Russian FIGs.  If played well by both players, it will probably fire at them again in a take-liberate-retake sequence in Ukraine.  But the CAPTURED AA Gun will fire at any of those 7 German aircraft (well six after Ukraine falls the first time) for most of the game if Germany uses their Air Force against Russia.  And in a few rounds that AA can also come into play against the 7 aircraft of Japan.

The Axis start as aerial powers (14 total aircraft to the Allies 12).  Russia is exclusively a land power (2 FIGs).  Do NOT give Russia extra AA guns if you are an aerial power!

@Jennifer:

You have less then a 3% chance to shoot down both Russian planes and only a 17% chance to get one of them.

To find the odds of two independant events, when occuring at the same time, you add the chances

1/6 of a chance of hitting a single plane + 1/6 of a chance of hitting a single plane = 2/6 chance of getting 1 plane with 2 dice.  33% of the time you will get one of the russian fighters.

You can verify that with a dice simm

+1 to axis_roll for his math skillz. Considering a smite for Jen but can’t QUITE justify it. But the next math infraction will cost you!

I like to take it further though - that 33% chance of hitting a fighter = 33% of 10 IPCs = avg. damage on the enemy of 3.3 IPCs

Then compared to a tank which each round has a 50% chance of killing an attacking Inf: 2 x 50% x 3 IPCs = 3 IPCs. So yes the AA would do slightly more damage to Russia, and in addition if it hits will reduce Russia to 1 or 0 fighters which will really affect Russia’s play. But on the other hand if Russia captures the AA that’s bad for you long-term.

I agree in the end that the AA to Russia is probably worse for the axis than the missed opportunity to hit a ftr.

Especially since a player like me probably wouldn’t hit Ukraine anyway on R1. Then I might capture Ukraine on R2 or R3, w/o air support, and if you retreat the AA to avoid its capture it will be pretty much where it would have been if you built an extra one in G1.

Again, I don’t think Russia should attack Ukraine. It’s nice to kill a Ftr but you can only do it at the expense of losing a number of tanks, which are more important to Russia. And I think Russia is less able to afford a slug-fest back and forth in the Ukraine - it can’t replace its units as easily as Germany.

So I WANT Russia to attack Ukraine when I’m Germany, so for me an AA gun there totally plays against that.