We should not attack Iraq

I saw this on yahoo and since we were talking about Israel seemed something to share.

http://news.yahoo.com/fc?tmpl=fc&cid=34&in=world&cat=mideast_conflict

Basicaly for those who havent read it, it talks about IDF troops backing out of Bethlahem as part of an Israeli-Palestinian security agreement.

I hate to ask and hope to god, or whomever you may beleive in, that I am so very wrong but how long till the suicide bombings against Israeli civilians start again?

We all know it’s going to happen again.

If the Palestinian Leadership would stop the bloodshed, and allow peace talks to rise above violence, then there is a possibility for reaching a mutual agreement. But not until that happens will Israel consider giving up anything.

@EmuGod:

About your idea of criticizing everyone as an Anti-semite, I only criticize those with destructive criticism not ones with constructive criticism. When you start saying things like “Don’t do what you religion tells you to.” that’s pure anti-semitism. If the criticism is constructive, then it shows the person means well and means to show possible flaws. Constructive criticism builds things up and destructive (such as Yanny’s) tears them down.

You are arrogant. If i hinder a muslim or hindu in his religion, then i am an antisemite?

Your idea of do not retaliate does not work. Countries run on pride and on their requirement to survive. When a country’s pride is damamged, it must do something about it. The United States had to fight Japan in World War 2, because it’s pride as a superpower was shattered due to the Pearl Harbor attack. According to your philosophy, America should have not declared war on Japan and let hte Japanese do whatever they wanted in the Pacific.

It worked fine quite a lot in the world, as i have given examples. Your example on the other hand is one superpower (US) provoking another (Japan) to attack, so that a war is “justified”.

I’m not saying to always retaliate. Negotiate if possible but in situations like in Israel, where negotiation is not possible, the only way to save the country is to retaliate.

Negotiation in Israel is not possible…… then would say: change the israeli government :)

I misunderstood you on purpose here, but your claim (of negotiation are impossible) is first of all unproven, because neither side really tried! The hawks of both side rules, sabotaging any peace effort made.

About Lebanon, Israel had actually eliminated most of the terrorists in Southern Lebanon. Do not forget the Syria controls the eastern part of Lebanon and that the Lebanese government is quite powerless,

since when does Syria occupy eastern Lebanon, how weak was Lebanon before the early 80’s and Israels invasion?

No, anti-semitism is not used to Muslims even though they are also Semitic people. It applies only to Jews because it is a term that began in Europe, where almsot no Muslims lived. It was used specifically against Jews, kind of like the common insult “jap”.

Negotiation was tried with Rabin, Peres and Barak but they all failed. Barak offered the Palestinians almost everything they wanted twice and they rejected it without a counter offer. What he suggested was also just a framework to work from but it was what would probably have been given up to them. Instead, they started another intifada.

@EmuGod:

No, anti-semitism is not used to Muslims even though they are also Semitic people. It applies only to Jews because it is a term that began in Europe, where almsot no Muslims lived. It was used specifically against Jews, kind of like the common insult “jap”.

to clarify my point:
you said

When you start saying things like “Don’t do what you religion tells you to.” that’s pure anti-semitism

I know what antisemitism means, and how often it is used by jews as a (IMHO) unfair means in a discussion.
Your claim that hinderingany religion is anti-semitic is arrogant!
The jewish claim of making their people by faith seems quite arrogant to me. By definition there can never be a native-american jew, right? Black or east-asian jews … is that possible, or is the jewish faith racist?

No, the Jewish religion is not racist. There can be ASian Jews and American Jews. You simply chose not read the post carefully, once again. I simply said that people in society frown upon outsiders and do there best to try and help outsiders assimilate as much as possible into society and are even sometimes angered when people od a minority do not confro mto the majority. For example, I can only go to eat at certain restaurants that are allowed according to my religion. Sometimes, a non-Jewish friend ofm ine may want to go eat pork and would ask em to come along. When I tell him I can’t go because it’s against my religion, he is upset with me over it.

Many people do not like people who are not like them because they are scared of wwhat they do not know. Jews have been the principle target for years, even when they fully assimilated into other country’s cultures such as in Nazi Germany. That is why it is so scary. People duting the Holocaust that had lost their Judaism were taken away to concentration camps because their parents or grandparents were Jewish. People did not know whny they were being taken away. Also, too much assimilation leads to inter-marriage which is horrible for people.

In general, I agree with E_G_,
however, I think you are both a little to harsh in you judgements.

My folkes were poor. I am not rich. I am a conservative who votes mostly Republican. I have watched the Dems give people welfare(of all kinds) for 30+ years(my notice of politics began in my teens). I’ve worked with families who were into their fourth generation of welfare(Met all 4 gens. -Greatgramma started on welfare as a 14 yr. old(mom) and every gen. daughter since had had a child by the age of 14-16[YES, 30 years to do it].

Speaking of who’s on whose side -

The US has one ally in the Middle East. Kuwait. They know the US is the only country willing to cover their ass.
WE DID IT ALONE BEFORE(Persian Gulf War). Everybody else cheered, said ‘let’s go’, sent supplies, support staf and medics. This wouldn’t be happening again if candya**ed Euros didn’t say ‘stop, and let’s talk’.

Saudi A is no ally. They fund Al Queda, Hezbollah, etc. Won’t let us use their airfields to go after SAD DAM!

Afghanistan is using US to get back on its feet.But we didn’t help them after they BEAT USSR’s BUTT!

Bahrain has said ‘no airfields here will be used against Baghdad.’ Some friend.

Egypt is the second largest recipient of US $ aid(Israel is #1). Yet they allow anti-US radio broadcasts and homilies :P by the mullahs/imams in the mosques. Egypt has been saying 'no, no, don’t do that ’ when anti US things are written in the Egyptian newspapers. Oh, boy, are they tough!

Yanny, I assume you know where Jordan is(NOT NEXT TO EGYPT).
Jordan is not on our side. They’ve been doing business with Iraq under the table(as have all Iraq’s neighbors). The ‘blackmarket’ is very profitable there these days.

Israel uses every country and counts none as an ally. Read ‘By Way of Deception’ written by an ex-Mossad agent/officer.

And, YES! Syrian forces do hold part of south Lebanon.For their protection and to aid the terrorists. It’s easier to keep an eye on your friends and enemies when you occupy their territory.

Lebanon is currently ruled by weak Christian forces. They have a hard time just keeping order in the capital, Beirut(which used to be the ‘Paris if the Middle East’).You REMEMBER Beirut , doncha[the KOBAR TOWERS barracks the terrorists destroyed with a truck bomb. YES, the mortar shells(and ROCKET ATTACKS) are still coming into northern Israel!

Oh, return Northern Ireland to Ireland!
JUst what the IRISH DON’T WANT. I’ve talked with a # of folks from all over Ireland and almost every one said to the letter ‘we don’t want those troublemakers!’ How 'bout that?

Hey, guys!
We need to respond firmly to the terrorist’s activities.
Many of you may not remember the first WTC attack(1993).
Remember the carbomb attacks on 2 US Embassies in Africa(1995)?
How about the USS Cole?
I think I missed a few but you get the idea.
WE DIDN’T DO ANYTHING!

Oh, we can’t forget SOMALIA. We went in (Bush 41), pussyfooted around (Bush 41 and Clinton), and pulled out like a roadrunner(Clinton) when they killed a few good men.

NO, PALESTINE WAS NOT A COUNTRY and is not occupied territory!
Israel won the land in a war. The US, GB, and France said give it back.
Israel did. Then they were attacked , again, won the war, and took the land (j’ever heera da SPOILS OF WAR?). The US, GB, and France said give it back. Israel did. Then they were attacked , again, won the war, and took the land . And it happened again!
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“The most important thing learned from the Persian Gulf War of 1991 is this: if you are ever to go to war against the United States of America, be sure to bring a nuclear weapon.” - Republic of India’s Military Chief of Staff

DAt wasme.
I’m gonna complain fer all the good it’l do - Xi

@EmuGod:

No, the Jewish religion is not racist. There can be ASian Jews and American Jews.

Well, you talked of tradition, not assimilating yourself to the point where you’d lose your religion etc.
AFAIK the jews consider themselves “the chosen people”, as this is what theid ancient tradition says. How can someone who definitly did not live with them in these ancient days be chosen as well? How can, say a native
american, be part of that people, if the first contact between his ancestors and the jewish faith is less than 500 years ago?

If this tradition on the other hand does not exclude him from becoming part of the jewish community, what are then reason for the jews to claim israel? It can’t be the ancient writings and laws, as those just have been overruled by the above.

Do you see what i want to say?

You simply chose not read the post carefully, once again. I simply said that people in society frown upon outsiders and do there best to try and help outsiders assimilate as much as possible into society and are even sometimes angered when people od a minority do not confro mto the majority. For example, I can only go to eat at certain restaurants that are allowed according to my religion. Sometimes, a non-Jewish friend ofm ine may want to go eat pork and would ask em to come along. When I tell him I can’t go because it’s against my religion, he is upset with me over it.

And again, you make claims for every minority. The jews are one minortiy among others. (if i go against any one of them, would you call me anti-semite for that?).
For the assimilation: The question is the degree of assimilation needed that (a) makes you part of the “host” society without (b) losing your own traits.
If you do not assimilate at all, you will build up ghettos, feel strange, and be the perfect target to blame for the majority whenever something goes wrong. That is what happened in europe: the jews for a long time were not allowed to assimilate, and they didn’t really wish to do it…… so they gathered in ghettos … well, and you know about the history of european antisemitism…

Another question: would you grant the freedoms that you want to any- and everybody else?
Like a spokesman of the muslim community in germany said: it is no problem for muslim to live in there, with western laws, and obey and follow them. That’s actually what the Quran wants them to do… as long as they are the minority, otherwise they should try to establish the sharia.
So, for you: can i get my piece of pork to eat in israel? Does Israel allow me to do whatever my “religion” tells me to do? How would the ppl react, if i disobey the laws for the shabbat (sp?), because my religion tells me to do this or that that is not conform?

Many people do not like people who are not like them because they are scared of wwhat they do not know. Jews have been the principle target for years, even when they fully assimilated into other country’s cultures such as in Nazi Germany. That is why it is so scary. People duting the Holocaust that had lost their Judaism were taken away to concentration camps because their parents or grandparents were Jewish. People did not know whny they were being taken away. Also, too much assimilation leads to inter-marriage which is horrible for people.

(1) The jews were “fully assimilated” not in the sense you said it would be bad, but in the sense i called good: they still had they’re culture, and had brought it into the german culture (not that this is too difficult, you know how similar jiddish and german are).
Your argument about “losing your judaism”:
Alone the thought of taking a religion as a qualifier for a race/people is absurd, from both sides! And, the people did know, why they were taken away, as they were officially classified as jew, semi-jew etc.

And, please, what is wrong about inter-marriage? Why is it “horrible”? And are you talking of inter-religion or inter-racial marraige?
I really fear that you have learnt nothing (or only the wrong stuff) out of the jewish history. Having suffered from racism/anti-semitism etc…. is no reason at all to allow you to do the same to others: You are not superior! You are not god’s chosen who has more rights than others. You should have learnt what happens when you start to think that.

@F_alk:

@EmuGod:

No, the Jewish religion is not racist. There can be ASian Jews and American Jews.

Well, you talked of tradition, not assimilating yourself to the point where you’d lose your religion etc.
AFAIK the jews consider themselves “the chosen people”, as this is what theid ancient tradition says. How can someone who definitly did not live with them in these ancient days be chosen as well? How can, say a native
american, be part of that people, if the first contact between his ancestors and the jewish faith is less than 500 years ago?

If this tradition on the other hand does not exclude him from becoming part of the jewish community, what are then reason for the jews to claim israel? It can’t be the ancient writings and laws, as those just have been overruled by the above.

Do you see what i want to say?

You simply chose not read the post carefully, once again. I simply said that people in society frown upon outsiders and do there best to try and help outsiders assimilate as much as possible into society and are even sometimes angered when people od a minority do not confro mto the majority. For example, I can only go to eat at certain restaurants that are allowed according to my religion. Sometimes, a non-Jewish friend ofm ine may want to go eat pork and would ask em to come along. When I tell him I can’t go because it’s against my religion, he is upset with me over it.

And again, you make claims for every minority. The jews are one minortiy among others. (if i go against any one of them, would you call me anti-semite for that?).
For the assimilation: The question is the degree of assimilation needed that (a) makes you part of the “host” society without (b) losing your own traits.
If you do not assimilate at all, you will build up ghettos, feel strange, and be the perfect target to blame for the majority whenever something goes wrong. That is what happened in europe: the jews for a long time were not allowed to assimilate, and they didn’t really wish to do it…… so they gathered in ghettos … well, and you know about the history of european antisemitism…

Another question: would you grant the freedoms that you want to any- and everybody else?
Like a spokesman of the muslim community in germany said: it is no problem for muslim to live in there, with western laws, and obey and follow them. That’s actually what the Quran wants them to do… as long as they are the minority, otherwise they should try to establish the sharia.
So, for you: can i get my piece of pork to eat in israel? Does Israel allow me to do whatever my “religion” tells me to do? How would the ppl react, if i disobey the laws for the shabbat (sp?), because my religion tells me to do this or that that is not conform?

Many people do not like people who are not like them because they are scared of wwhat they do not know. Jews have been the principle target for years, even when they fully assimilated into other country’s cultures such as in Nazi Germany. That is why it is so scary. People duting the Holocaust that had lost their Judaism were taken away to concentration camps because their parents or grandparents were Jewish. People did not know whny they were being taken away. Also, too much assimilation leads to inter-marriage which is horrible for people.

(1) The jews were “fully assimilated” not in the sense you said it would be bad, but in the sense i called good: they still had they’re culture, and had brought it into the german culture (not that this is too difficult, you know how similar jiddish and german are).
Your argument about “losing your judaism”:
Alone the thought of taking a religion as a qualifier for a race/people is absurd, from both sides! And, the people did know, why they were taken away, as they were officially classified as jew, semi-jew etc.

And, please, what is wrong about inter-marriage? Why is it “horrible”? And are you talking of inter-religion or inter-racial marraige?
I really fear that you have learnt nothing (or only the wrong stuff) out of the jewish history. Having suffered from racism/anti-semitism etc…. is no reason at all to allow you to do the same to others: You are not superior! You are not god’s chosen who has more rights than others. You should have learnt what happens when you start to think that.

No one said anything abut more rights or superiority, F_alk. I posted this to FinsterniS (I think that’s how you spell his name) and tried to explain how the term may seem racist but its implications are not.

If you go against another religion, you are racist. There is a special word, anti-semitism, to describe hatred against Jews. Din’t ask me why, that question would have to e directed to the people of Europe in the Middle Ages. I can tell you that the meaning of anti-semitism is hatred agaisnt those who cam from Shem, who was one of Noah’s sons. The Jews came from Shem and eventually the Muslims, but since no Muslims lived in Europe at the time, the term was used to mean hatred agaisnt Jews only. It’s all racism, it’s all bad, but for some reason hatred against Jews has its own word for it.

What is horrible about inter-marriage is that it ends the religion. When two people from different backgrounds get married and want to raise a child, who’s religion and culture do they follow? Many try to let the child choose for himself/herself, but that is not possible because children are not able to make such decisions until they reach adulthood. See my point? It is very hard to keep a religion/culture (I’m assuming that both the parents really love their culture/religion and want the child to have it) when the two cultures/religions are so different. In most cases, the child loses both cultures. In the case of Judaism, this will most likely diminish the number of Jews in the world. Remember, Jews make up 0.25% of the world’s population. 15 million out of 6 billion if you want to confirm the math.

Of course the people knew why they were taken away. I didn’t explain it properly. They simply didn’t know, if they had assimilated to the point where they had lost their culture (as many did in Germany). why they had been called a Jew. They were Christians or Atheists and did not understand why they were being called Jews until they realized it was because of some parent or grandparent. Assimilation is good to a point. Once you start losing your tradition and culture you are a very easy target for racism, because you don’t even know WHY you are being targetted. You don’t have a difinitive place to go to in order t osave yourself.

The whole concept of the “Chosen People” has nothing to do with the people’s blood or anything, like Hitler thought it was with his “aryan race”. It’s something more spiritual and I can recommend lots of readings for you if you want to learn exactly what it means. Believe me, life as a Jew is not fun. It’s much harder with many more restrictions on you. People sometimes decide to convert to Judaism, and if they are committed and really want to, they can convert to the religion. It’s a long 3-year process, but those who want to go through it are fully accepted.

Are we talking about Eastern Europe or Western Europe now? In Eastern Europe the Jews were forced into ghettos and were merely tolerated in the Pale of Settlement. In Western Europe, the Jews were given full rights and citizenship and many assimilated into the culture to the point where they lost their religion. There are stories of this in the Holocaust of German Jews who had lost their Judaism and were extremely nationalistic and in some cases were even more German than the actual Germans in their communities. THese people were also killed off by Hitler.

Part of Judaism is tolerance for other religions. There are many non-kosher Macdonalds in Israel where you can go eat your bacon cheeseburgers and you can do anything you like on Shabbat. It’s your life and your laws, and according to Judaism, you can do whatever you like. No one is saying anything about you. You will not go to hell just because you aren’t Jewish, that’s a very Christian belief that everyone who isnt Christian will go to hell.

In fact, F_alk, many of your arguements were based on Christian beliefs rather than Jewish beliefs. There are some very big differences between the two religions, and you struck the Christian (I’m talking old Christian before the Holocaust) beliefs.

No one said anything abut more rights or superiority, F_alk. I posted this to FinsterniS (I think that’s how you spell his name) and tried to explain how the term may seem racist but its implications are not.

Well… you did not convince me. I don’t see why i should consider Judaism as better of worse than Christianism or Islamism. Christian believe Jesus is the only way to god, Muslim believe Mohammed is the only way to allah, Jew believe they are the chosen people…

What is horrible about inter-marriage is that it ends the religion. When two people from different backgrounds get married and want to raise a child, who’s religion and culture do they follow? Many try to let the child choose for himself/herself, but that is not possible because children are not able to make such decisions until they reach adulthood. See my point? It is very hard to keep a religion/culture (I’m assuming that both the parents really love their culture/religion and want the child to have it) when the two cultures/religions are so different. In most cases, the child loses both cultures. In the case of Judaism, this will most likely diminish the number of Jews in the world. Remember, Jews make up 0.25% of the world’s population. 15 million out of 6 billion if you want to confirm the math.

Well, we can only admire Jew resilience… most people we call Jew in Europe have like 1/4, 1/8 or even less Jewish blood… Anyway mixing up is part of evolution, when two people from different culcure have a child, the child is stronger… like Dogs, bastards live longer and better than “pure sang”.

@FinsterniS:

No one said anything abut more rights or superiority, F_alk. I posted this to FinsterniS (I think that’s how you spell his name) and tried to explain how the term may seem racist but its implications are not.

Well… you did not convince me. I don’t see why i should consider Judaism as better of worse than Christianism or Islamism. Christian believe Jesus is the only way to god, Muslim believe Mohammed is the only way to allah, Jew believe they are the chosen people…

What is horrible about inter-marriage is that it ends the religion. When two people from different backgrounds get married and want to raise a child, who’s religion and culture do they follow? Many try to let the child choose for himself/herself, but that is not possible because children are not able to make such decisions until they reach adulthood. See my point? It is very hard to keep a religion/culture (I’m assuming that both the parents really love their culture/religion and want the child to have it) when the two cultures/religions are so different. In most cases, the child loses both cultures. In the case of Judaism, this will most likely diminish the number of Jews in the world. Remember, Jews make up 0.25% of the world’s population. 15 million out of 6 billion if you want to confirm the math.

Well, we can only admire Jew resilience… most people we call Jew in Europe have like 1/4, 1/8 or even less Jewish blood… Anyway mixing up is part of evolution, when two people from different culcure have a child, the child is stronger… like Dogs, bastards live longer and better than “pure sang”.

Of course I didn’t convince you. How do you expect me to convince you of such a big and broad topic without any research material? It’s a very hard thing to explain, and like I said beofre, I still havent explained it properly. You are assuming that the Chosen People means that Jews think that they are right and everyone else is wrong and that they will all suffer. But that is not true. THe concept is much different than that. I’ll post some books for research if you are interested.

BTW FinsterniS, I ate a French dish (German really) from around the area of Strassbourg and I can’t remember its name. It’s made with Sauerkraut, different kinds of meat and vegetables.

w.r.t. the whole marriage concept - Paul (an apostle) cautions Christians to not be “unequally yoked” likening the relationship between a Christian and a nonChristian to the relationship between two oxen who should not be yoked together. I do not think that FinsterniS or F_alk would understand this concept as when marriage requires an equal partnership with respect to spiritual/religious beliefs - which when they are not similar it may create an imbalanced environment for a family that already has many forces acting against it.
I could not marry a non-Christian. It simply would not work. “Daddy, why does Mommy not go to Church” is simply not a question i want to answer. I don’t want to marry someone identical to me in terms of beliefs etc., but i want to be able to grow in The Lord with my partner.
I realize that i sound quite silly and “exclusive” in this regard, so i will understand if you guys think i’m nuts. At the same time, I don’t think that my wife would understand my desire to be devoted to both her and God unless she is devoted to both me and God.
There are verses in Proverbs, i think too, to reinforce this for Jews.

@cystic:

w.r.t. the whole marriage concept - Paul (an apostle) cautions Christians to not be “unequally yoked” likening the relationship between a Christian and a nonChristian to the relationship between two oxen who should not be yoked together.

I understand CC, but we don’t choose love, like the women i’m with now; i love her before i knew she was an Atheist.

Also remember i was as christian as you are, i perfectly know what it is to “feel” and “speak” to the lord as i understand what you feel about marriage.

Of course I didn’t convince you. How do you expect me to convince you of such a big and broad topic without any research material? It’s a very hard thing to explain, and like I said beofre, I still havent explained it properly. You are assuming that the Chosen People means that Jews think that they are right and everyone else is wrong and that they will all suffer. But that is not true. THe concept is much different than that. I’ll post some books for research if you are interested.

Yes i would like…more neutral book if you can, written by non-jew sociologist. Anyway if you don’t find i am sure i will…

But when i say i think it is arrogant, it is just like Christianism, they think they are different, i never said Judaism was racist, i don’t have enough information to make such statement…

BTW FinsterniS, I ate a French dish (German really) from around the area of Strassbourg and I can’t remember its name. It’s made with Sauerkraut, different kinds of meat and vegetables.

Sauerkraut mean choucroute by the way… it was maybe a choucroute garni a l’alsacienne ? Alsace is the region where Strasbourg is. A nice place… a little too hot for me, but it’s nice, close to germany from a geographic and cultural point of view…

@FinsterniS:

@cystic:

w.r.t. the whole marriage concept - Paul (an apostle) cautions Christians to not be “unequally yoked” likening the relationship between a Christian and a nonChristian to the relationship between two oxen who should not be yoked together.

I understand CC, but we don’t choose love, like the women i’m with now; i love her before i knew she was an Atheist.

ahhh love.
what a fun concept. What a topic for a billion forums.
can we manipulate love? Does it actually mean something to “be in love”? How solid is the idea of love once a seed implanted into our minds.
I think i’ve made myself love women before and stop loving women, but some might say that i always did or never did love them (respectively).
weird.

@cystic:

w.r.t. the whole marriage concept -
…
I do not think that FinsterniS or F_alk would understand this concept as when marriage requires an equal partnership with respect to spiritual/religious beliefs - which when they are not similar it may create an imbalanced environment for a family that already has many forces acting against it.

It really depends on the degree of each’s faith. I think an agnostic could go pretty well with most moderately faithful partners. Two fundamentalists of different faiths is impossible…. (another reason not to follow a faith to strongly, it reduces the number of people you can live with).
The question is the impact of the faith on your daily life. I don’t mind people being vegetarian, so i don’t mind ppl who don’t eat beef or pork … or anything that has not that much impact on my life.

I could not marry a non-Christian. It simply would not work. “Daddy, why does Mommy not go to Church” is simply not a question i want to answer.

Why not? I mean, that is a question of a thinking child, that’s about the most interesting and challenging for me that i can think of…. Your child might not be able to decide from the start (just as EG said, but i think that that’s a very good thing!), but it will not be indoctrinated, it is her/his free will to join one of the religions or not. That is a much stronger decision than just following one thing for your whole life and swallowing their propaganda the whole time. You learn to see two sides of a story, to think for yourself and to decide for yourself… that is wonderful and not “bad” !!!

…I realize that i sound quite silly and “exclusive” in this regard, so i will understand if you guys think i’m nuts…

Well, good :) 'cause that’s what i think :)

@EmuGod:

No one said anything abut more rights or superiority, F_alk. I posted this to FinsterniS (I think that’s how you spell his name) and tried to explain how the term may seem racist but its implications are not.

Well, your throw around the accusation of others being racist (anti semite in this case) pretty fast! That was the point i was critizing. If you call someone antisemite without thinking double…… well, then i can call you racist without thinking twice as well!

If you go against another religion, you are racist. There is a special word, anti-semitism, to describe hatred against Jews. …

I know, nice explanation for the others, but no need to do it a third time :)

What is horrible about inter-marriage is that it ends the religion. When two people from different backgrounds get married and want to raise a child, who’s religion and culture do they follow? Many try to let the child choose for himself/herself, but that is not possible because children are not able to make such decisions until they reach adulthood. See my point? It is very hard to keep a religion/culture (I’m assuming that both the parents really love their culture/religion and want the child to have it) when the two cultures/religions are so different. In most cases, the child loses both cultures. In the case of Judaism, this will most likely diminish the number of Jews in the world. Remember, Jews make up 0.25% of the world’s population. 15 million out of 6 billion if you want to confirm the math.

Why not teach the kid both traditions, abnd let it choose? You will have a tolerant follower of one of those tradtions, and that of its freew ill and not because it was fed with dogma after dogma from birth on.

Plus: the three book-keeping religions are not too different, compared to other religions that have existed and stil exist. An Intermarriage here should not at all be a problem, and most of the time the trouble comes from a muslim woman involved (which are not allowed by their religion to marry someone of another faith) …. christians are “by law” pretty free to marry whoever they want, but as CC said, maybe “feel” like not doing it… and i recall that jews are not allowed to marry non-jews, is that right?

Plus: the number of followers of Zeus, Thor and the tooth fairy :) have diminished as well over the time… i know that you will fight against that trend, but well, it’s only natural for religions to die out. Som for me, that argument makes your point understandable for you, but i can’t see the “global” importance.

…They were Christians or Atheists and did not understand why they were being called Jews until they realized it was because of some parent or grandparent. Assimilation is good to a point. Once you start losing your tradition and culture you are a very easy target for racism, because you don’t even know WHY you are being targetted. You don’t have a difinitive place to go to in order t osave yourself.

To the first: i think they understood why they were called jews half an hour the latest after they have been first called it….
And for losing your tradition: I disagree with your point of view. If you try not to be part of the society… you said:

Many people do not like people who are not like them because they are scared of wwhat they do not know.

That of course happens much more, when you are not assimilated, and people can see that you are different every day on the streets.

The whole concept of the “Chosen People” has nothing to do with the people’s blood or anything, like Hitler thought it was with his “aryan race”. It’s something more spiritual and I can recommend lots of readings for you if you want to learn exactly what it means. … People sometimes decide to convert to Judaism, and if they are committed and really want to, they can convert to the religion. It’s a long 3-year process, but those who want to go through it are fully accepted.

But they can’t immigrate to Israel before that three years, right?
And when did that interpretation from chosen people blood<->spiritual change? You can’t tell me it was like that since the foundation of the jewsih faith, so it must have changed…. when and why?

Plus: if this is a spiritual thing, why is the promised land not spiritual? where does the justification for taking control there come from?

Are we talking about Eastern Europe or Western Europe now? In Eastern Europe the Jews were forced into ghettos and were merely tolerated in the Pale of Settlement. In Western Europe, the Jews were given full rights and citizenship and many assimilated into the culture to the point where they lost their religion. …

We are talking about times/dates. Have a look at spain during the reconquista etc. the ghettos were everywhere, and especially when jews were in a christian society and didn’t (were not allowed to) assimilate. The spanish jews all moved to the same ottoman city …. they chose to build that ghetto!
The full rights in western europe… well, they came in the 19th century! I was talking about the 1000 years before that (roughly).

Part of Judaism is tolerance for other religions. …
In fact, F_alk, many of your arguements were based on Christian beliefs rather than Jewish beliefs. There are some very big differences between the two religions, and you struck the Christian (I’m talking old Christian before the Holocaust) beliefs.

Of course they are more christian than jewish: i grew up in a christian-based society. But i wonder which of my arguments where “old christian” and which were not…
The same argument goes for your stance on Israel/Palestine: your arguments are israel/jewish-based rather than palestine/muslim beliefs. There are some very big difference between the two religions, and you struck the jewish beliefs… hmmm, i hope that makes you thinking a bit…

And it must hurt CC and YB to hear someone call me christian :lol: