Communsim is not good

@TM:

TG Moses,

The problem with the communism is that it cannot work. Following the Communist Revolution, Lenin faced compounding problems behind economic planning. Lenin later wrote, “In attempting to go over straight to communism we, in the spring of 1921, sustained a more serious defeat on the economic front than any defeat inflicted upon us by Kolchak, Deniken or Pilsudski. This defeat was much more serious, significant and dangerous. It was expressed in the isolation of the higher administrators of our economic policy from the lower and their failure to produce that development of the productive forces which the Programme of our Party regards as vital and urgent.”

In February 1921, Lenin secretly wrote, “The greatest danger is that the work of planning the state economy may be bureaucratized . . . . A complete, integrated, real plan for us at present equals ‘a bureaucratic utopia.’ Don’t chase it.”

Trotsky admitted to similar problems. In his literary work, The Revolution Betrayed, Trotsky wrote that while “the obedient professors managed to create an entire theory according to which the Soviet price, in contrast to the market price, has an exclusively planning or directive character . . . . The professors forgot to explain how you can ‘guide’ a price without knowing real costs, and how you can estimate real costs if all prices express the will of the bureaucracy . . .”

In Socialism (1922), Mises demonstrated the logical flaws of communism because of the system’s inability to provide knowledge about which production projects are feasible and which ones are not. Without private ownership in the means of production, rational economic calculation is unknowable. Once economic planners are in power, they must find some rationale to base their decisions on. As a result, those who have an advantage in exercising one’s power will rise to the top of the planning mechanism. In this case, Stalinism becomes a logical consequence of Marxism. It grand failure lies in the decline in economic productivity because of state overcentralization and the deterioration of the bureaucratized social welfare system, a supposed benefit of Communist rule.

It is common practice today to criticize the deformed, egalitarian socialism built in the 1930s. But that criticism sidesteps the structural reasons for a communist barracks-style approach. And it avoids the central question: Can a conformist, democratic socialism be built on a noncommodity, nonmarket foundation? Why is it that in most cases, efforts to combat the market and commodity-money relations have always led to authoritarianism and encroachments on individual rights?

What has more government centralization brought to the United States? Less than 2 percent of Americans are farmers, yet the Department of Agriculture adds still more bureaucrats. Before 1950, the government largely stayed out of the housing business. Now we have housing projects in all of our major cities, and the government, an absentee landlord, couldn’t care less. The private sector can build housing more cheaply, with an incentive to maintain the property and screen tenants. During the 1980s, the “decade of greed,” charitable contributions by corporations and private citizens increased by at least 30 percent. Why? People had more disposable income, paid fewer taxes, and therefore gave more away. Americans are among the most generous people on Earth. But people want their money to go to people and organizations that they choose and trust.

Oh man, so now I have to deal with you too? Great, just what I always wanted to ask for. :P And now you’re even using the Sage of South Central and the Hall of conservative thought against me? Man, and I thought I told you to run all capitalist claims through me first. Okayyyyy, I surrender :o . Puts up white flag Turn me in. (Just don’t feed me to the camels :wink: )

NOT if we can blow 'em up real good with some good 'ole million dollar warheads :)

Damn camels…

“Because I want to help improve the lives of those around me, it is selfish? Maybe.”

That’s a lie and you know it.

Communism only works if everyone is a perfect communist. If not, the system, dependent on a “group effort” of sorts, would collapse upon itself. Capitalism has greed and we all know it. It is what makes capitalism “bad.” You say, “societyies weren’t always like that” or people can be “good christians.” impossible.

Three examples.

Look at a parking lot…in Shea stadium. If everyone was courteous and didn’t cut eachother off, everyone would get out by 11:00. But people literally steal time from eachother, because to any driver they are “selfish pricks.” So you don’t need a cap[italist society to foster greed. All you need is an oppurtunity to take or corrupt anything. Society can be corrupted, and Communism IS NOT the andidote to it.

When you are a little kid (or maybe still) you go to the supermarket. You see the gummy worms in the plastic bin with the knob, so you take three and eat them. Now if no one did that, gummy worms would be cheaper…but guess what, people steal, because there is an oppurtunity to take something they want. Your parent probably did not tell you to “steal the gummy worms”, no one has to. You are born with desire, and with that you DEVELOP greed. Pretty simple.

You are in first grade. Your teacher, Mrs. Whitman, has a collection of foreign coins for the class to play with. You really like them, and they are “the classes” and they are supposed to be “shared”, but what the hell, stick a couple in your shoe! Your parents, teacher, and class never condoned this, but guess what, you like the shiney or odd looking coins. The greed is acquired, and now there are less coins to go around. I guess Mrs. Whitman won’t bring anymore in then.
(Happy ending: I returned the coins!)

Communism relies on people pulling their weight, and when they can’t enough people are sharing and working so EVERYONE would benefit. But that is impossible with man.

@FinsterniS:

good ideas… good ideas to exploit people you mean. The most genius mind are rarely rich. When you see some rich people you will say; hey, he got a good ideas ? you forget he was probably just at the right place at the right time. The rich people always say it was good ideas that make them rich, that is the speach of the victor.

Just take W. Bush, he is not very brilliant, still he get a good education and lot of money. That is not the exeption; he is the “normal” case.

And crypt, when i was speaking of the hocky player; what i said was; he did’nt work as much as 20 times more than a normal worker, he was just lucky, at the right place at the right time.

(CRYPT’S GRAND UNIFICATION THEOREM)
capitalism is like evolution - the talent makes it, the crap gets weeded out.
communism is like intelligent design - an almighty over-seer (gov’t) creates the economy - jobs, etc. and makes certain that certain ideals etc. are created into the system.
(it needs work, but you can kind of get the gist).
note that many capitalists appear to be intelligent design people, and the communists seem to be blind-watchmaker types
Capitalism is like evolution

Then i’m a capitalist. Wait a minute, that does’nt work out :D

Maybe communism is a step in social evolution that we are not ready to make, but it is still maybe a step.

A step that breaks from under you and hurts man kind.

"The most genius mind are rarely rich. When you see some rich people you will say; hey, he got a good ideas ? you forget he was probably just at the right place at the right time. The rich people always say it was good ideas that make them rich, that is the speach of the victor. "

How about Milton Hershey, Karl Benz, or Eli Whitney? They didn’t deserve to be rich. Of course there is a kind of “landed mobility”, more like people who’s family that has money and they don’t have to strive to make more. but it doesn’t last forever! I see it every day (or when my dad’s girlfriend calls.)

“Public Colleges are horrible in the US because the Goverment doesn’t put enough money into them. We should be less concerned with firing million dollar missles at Camels in Afganastan, we should educate our own people.”

I had an ignorant friend who said that too. One, losing big tall buildings costs a crap load of money, hurts the economy, and less goes to our schools. The “War on Terror” (in some ways and circumstances) is needed for America’s defense, don’t give me that we are robbing the schools.

Schools get a shit load of cash and still suck. They don’t know how to use it because every family memeber of the head of any department and administrators get a crap load of state paid kick backs, and they could get even more through “construction” and buying 600 dollar computers for 3 to 4 grand! If a corperation owned a school, they would not buy $600 toilet seats, and try to pull a profit.

@cystic:

NOT if we can blow 'em up real good with some good 'ole million dollar warheads :)

be with the times…they are ten Gs. we are throwing away Kias.

that remark was made by bush and he was quoted saying “i’m not going to just fire a couple million dollar misslies at tents to hit a camel in the ass” or something like that.

“What has more government centralization brought to the United States? Less than 2 percent of Americans are farmers, yet the Department of Agriculture adds still more bureaucrats. Before 1950, the government largely stayed out of the housing business. Now we have housing projects in all of our major cities, and the government, an absentee landlord, couldn’t care less. The private sector can build housing more cheaply, with an incentive to maintain the property and screen tenants. During the 1980s, the “decade of greed,” charitable contributions by corporations and private citizens increased by at least 30 percent. Why? People had more disposable income, paid fewer taxes, and therefore gave more away. Americans are among the most generous people on Earth. But people want their money to go to people and organizations that they choose and trust.”

America went trillions in debt in the 80s, and social spending and beauracracy went UP! Regan was the biggest damn liberal of them all, but he cut taxes with money that didn’t exist. Regan won us the cold war by possibly pushing the USSR over the edge (though they were going that way to begin with), but he increased social spending and with it the middle class’s share of wealth (but not wealth itself) declined.

@HortenFlyingWing:

“What has more government centralization brought to the United States? Less than 2 percent of Americans are farmers, yet the Department of Agriculture adds still more bureaucrats. Before 1950, the government largely stayed out of the housing business. Now we have housing projects in all of our major cities, and the government, an absentee landlord, couldn’t care less. The private sector can build housing more cheaply, with an incentive to maintain the property and screen tenants. During the 1980s, the “decade of greed,” charitable contributions by corporations and private citizens increased by at least 30 percent. Why? People had more disposable income, paid fewer taxes, and therefore gave more away. Americans are among the most generous people on Earth. But people want their money to go to people and organizations that they choose and trust.”

America went trillions in debt in the 80s, and social spending and beauracracy went UP! Regan was the biggest damn liberal of them all, but he cut taxes with money that didn’t exist. Regan won us the cold war by possibly pushing the USSR over the edge (though they were going that way to begin with), but he increased social spending and with it the middle class’s share of wealth (but not wealth itself) declined.

weird how Canadians follow Americans. This sounds just like Mulrooney in the 80’s ('cept for that whole “winning the cold war” bit. I think everyone ultimately “won” the cold war.

@HortenFlyingWing:

Communism only works if everyone is a perfect communist. If not, the system, dependent on a “group effort” of sorts, would collapse upon itself. Capitalism has greed and we all know it. It is what makes capitalism “bad.” You say, “societyies weren’t always like that” or people can be “good christians.” impossible.”

A society of Christians!? I hope I never see the day when the whole world becomes like that! :P Also, I probably did say societies “weren’t always like that.” Some were even worse (feudalism) and some were even better (Kibbutz).

@HortenFlyingWing:

Three examples.

Look at a parking lot…in Shea stadium. If everyone was courteous and didn’t cut eachother off, everyone would get out by 11:00. But people literally steal time from eachother, because to any driver they are “selfish pricks.” So you don’t need a cap[italist society to foster greed. All you need is an oppurtunity to take or corrupt anything. Society can be corrupted, and Communism IS NOT the andidote to it. [/quote]

Ah, but you forgetting, Communism is the antidote. However, no antidote can bring back a society so infected with greed. Hopefully, capitalism hasn’t degenerated the people that far. As for human nature being inherently greedy, I can also say Humans are inherently social – probably even more so. The basic form of human societies has been cooperative and, despite Market pressures to be otherwise, on the whole still is. Capitalism itself is inherently monopolistic and only maintains the sham of competition through state intervention to curb those tendencies. "From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs,” that is the statement of intent. Equality of opportunity is the basis of communism. There are, though, people who don’t simply give in to that “human greed” and who still have some real ideas: a world where everyone is equal and where oppression (capitalism) has been destroyed.

@HortenFlyingWing:

When you are a little kid (or maybe still) you go to the supermarket. You see the gummy worms in the plastic bin with the knob, so you take three and eat them. Now if no one did that, gummy worms would be cheaper…but guess what, people steal, because there is an oppurtunity to take something they want. Your parent probably did not tell you to “steal the gummy worms”, no one has to. You are born with desire, and with that you DEVELOP greed. Pretty simple.

I have no idea how a little kid coming up to take gummy worms translate into higher prices, at least at the scale. In a communist society, kids are free to take what they want within certain means. Also, when you take those gummy bears, is it a good feeling? Maybe not right when you commit the act, but afterwards you do feel guilt and shame inside. Imagine how much this effect would be amplified in a communist society? Also it would seem strange how 1 in a class of 35 (average sized classroom here) would resort to stealing “coins” – what about the other 34?

@HortenFlyingWing:

You are in first grade. Your teacher, Mrs. Whitman, has a collection of foreign coins for the class to play with. You really like them, and they are “the classes” and they are supposed to be “shared”, but what the hell, stick a couple in your shoe! Your parents, teacher, and class never condoned this, but guess what, you like the shiney or odd looking coins. The greed is acquired, and now there are less coins to go around. I guess Mrs. Whitman won’t bring anymore in then.
(Happy ending: I returned the coins!)”

I don’t know, but are these questions are a little trivial? Why don’t we move a step up to questions that actually relate to the economy? I would say the same thing. Since you returned those coins, wouldn’t this be an irregularity of capitalist practice? Wouldn’t you go, “Heeheehee… know I can sell these coins on the black market!” Upon noticing the missing coins, Mrs. Whitman decides to suspend the whole class from recess until the coins are returned – no questions asked. With this punishment applied to the whole class (even worst, if someone saw you do it), would you be still be bent on keeping those coins are returning them? I know I wouldn’t.

@HortenFlyingWing:

Communism relies on people pulling their weight, and when they can’t enough people are sharing and working so EVERYONE would benefit. But that is impossible with man.

Funny how man often accomplishes the impossible, not matter how improbable. I guess the Earth is still flat, huh? :wink:

I will always fight for what I believe in, even if that does force me to build a better world. Communism does not require a perfect world but a unified one. If People can be perfect, but if they’re not willing cooperate, then what’s the use of communism?

@cystic:

@HortenFlyingWing:

“What has more government centralization brought to the United States? Less than 2 percent of Americans are farmers, yet the Department of Agriculture adds still more bureaucrats. Before 1950, the government largely stayed out of the housing business. Now we have housing projects in all of our major cities, and the government, an absentee landlord, couldn’t care less. The private sector can build housing more cheaply, with an incentive to maintain the property and screen tenants. During the 1980s, the “decade of greed,” charitable contributions by corporations and private citizens increased by at least 30 percent. Why? People had more disposable income, paid fewer taxes, and therefore gave more away. Americans are among the most generous people on Earth. But people want their money to go to people and organizations that they choose and trust.”

America went trillions in debt in the 80s, and social spending and beauracracy went UP! Regan was the biggest damn liberal of them all, but he cut taxes with money that didn’t exist. Regan won us the cold war by possibly pushing the USSR over the edge (though they were going that way to begin with), but he increased social spending and with it the middle class’s share of wealth (but not wealth itself) declined.

weird how Canadians follow Americans. This sounds just like Mulrooney in the 80’s ('cept for that whole “winning the cold war” bit. I think everyone ultimately “won” the cold war.

huh???

"Hopefully, capitalism hasn’t degenerated the people that far. "

You don’t get it moses, it isn’t capitalism that “degenerated” people, it is unrelated greed.

@yourbuttocks:

Don’t get me wrong Moses, I think a better world can be built with socialistic ideas involved. However, the only society I can imagine which could support full Communism is a society which would not need it.

If I at all believed that COmmunism was feasible Moses, I would be waving the hammer and sickle right beside you. However, I am a pragmatic idealist, and I know that it could not work.

exactly.

“Communism does not require a perfect world but a unified one. If People can be perfect, but if they’re not willing cooperate, then what’s the use of communism?”

People can cooperate and be nice and work together WITHOUT COMMUNISM. PEOPLE CHOOSE NOT TO, NOT BECAUSE OF CAPITALISM, BUT BECAUSE THEY CARE MORE ABOUT THEMSELVES.

“You don’t get it moses, it isn’t capitalism that “degenerated” people, it is unrelated greed”

Then communism will still work :wink: . It’s true that greed was around before the invention of the capitalist system, but capitalist presents so many more ways in which to promote greed and to accelerate its growth. This has become so grotesque that greed is actually embraced, rather then rejected.

“People can cooperate and be nice and work together WITHOUT COMMUNISM. PEOPLE CHOOSE NOT TO, NOT BECAUSE OF CAPITALISM, BUT BECAUSE THEY CARE MORE ABOUT THEMSELVES.”

So you would care no more for a love one or a best friend? However, communism naturally benefits almost everyone, yourself included.