Attacking Ukraine

@newpaintbrush:

@cyan:

i would personaly not use a fighter in egypt. to take ukraine you have to use the 4inf from the balkans and eastern europe with 1 tank the balkans. you will lose 3 infantry so that is 12ipc versus their 15ipc there is no way to attack the 4inf/1art/1tank in west russia. i would send 3inf from norway. thats an ipc gain of 4ipc because you both will lose one infantry. so your up 7ipc+the 6 from capturing ukraine. russia was up 31 ipc but 31-13=18 so b the end of G1 russia will always be up

option 1:westrussia and ukrain attack 18ipc advantage for russia
option 2:only westrussia  4 ipc advantage.
option 3:belorussia and west russia is 13ipc advantage.
so on the economic level ukraine is teh best with an addtional 5ipc gain. i also like where the units are palced out at the end of the turn too.

I totally do not understand your post at all.  You would send 3 inf from Norway to Karelia, and gain 4 IPC?  But 3 inf only have a 42% chance of destroying a single opponent on the first turn, so using 1/3 * 3 as your calculation is incorrect to subtract 1 from Germany’s IPC gain is incorrect.  Please take the time to explain yourself for future posts!

I also seriously think that a habit of assuming “you will lose 3 infantry” is bad.  The SINGLE most likely outcome in a game is not going to happen maybe 80+% of the time, because there are any number of outcomes that each have distinctly lesser probabilitiies of happening, but that cumulatively outweigh that single “most probable” outcome.  That is my second point.

3infantry vs. 1infantry will mostly win. each infanry atttack on a one so 3times 1 is 3. then you divide and get 1/2. russian infantry divend on a 2 or 1/3. russia will probablly miss and germany will mostly hit the infantry this or nest round. 1/3+1/3=2/3. 1/2 chance of not killing the russian * 1/3 chance of kiiling on the second round or 1/6+1/3 from killing prevously roud =1/2 so you should kill a german infantry half the time in the whole battle. ;et say russia didnot get the kit but germany rolled  aone 1st turn. you know go -3ipc. so now that is a 15 ipc advantage. really should be 16.5 ipc.

karelia is worth 2ipc so when you take it from russia that is -2 for russia and +2 for germany. that is how i got the four.

“This is a very extreme example because fighters are normally used with infantry shields, or to attack enemy naval units, and for their ranged threat.  But it DOES illustrate my point.  Although I agree that early IPC gains are important, I believe that preserving valuable forces for later use and having the correct mixture is ALSO important.”
that is why you lose 3ipc for an infantry death and 4for artilery and 10 for fighters.

“I also seriously think that a habit of assuming “you will lose 3 infantry” is bad.  The SINGLE most likely outcome in a game is not going to happen maybe 80+% of the time, because there are any number of outcomes that each have distinctly lesser probabilitiies of happening, but that cumulatively outweigh that single “most probable” outcome.  That is my second point.”
your right but the easiest way to predict something is use the outcome with the highest probabilty. ets say 4inf +1 tank attack  3tanks. you will mostly kill two tank and the rusians 2 infantry. then 2inf 1tankVS1tank. my bad  i ran thsi through a probailt calcultor for aa and it said 1 extra inf should die.

so you are up a 13.5ipc asvantage which is almost identical to belrussia option. thanks for helping find my mistake in the ukraine option. so i ges all i proved was don’t only attack westrussia but another terrotory too. so i guess it is which option yiu personally like best to do. for me this is ukraine. i don’t like leaving karelia empty and  i get to maybe cause a medeterian assult fail for germany nest turn beacuse of the fighter.

As I said before there’s alot more to attacks than IPC value of pieces destroyed. IMO the R1 Ukraine battle is one of those attacks. It sets the tone, it kills a precious German fighter, it helps lower the % chance of things going well for Germany on G1 attacks.

And it’s not the death knell for Russian armor. Only use two in the attack, and slowly (or quickly if so desired) replenish Russian armored forces. The battle favors Russia, and there’s no room IMO to base decisions on the chance of bad dice. You could just as easily factor in the chance of overwhelmingly good dice, which makes no sense. I choose to base my battles on odds.

It’s not so much a debate over IPC value when you talk about taking Ukraine (although the extra 3 IPC is nice to have.)  It’s more of a situation where you have the best possible opportunity to destroy a German fighter, a fighter that could be an absolute total and complete thorn in the side of the allies for the next 8 rounds if you do not get it now.  It might not, but it might.

Also, you give me that extra fighter and I will play havoc on you. :)  Seriously, the extra fighter means I conquer Egypt with more units, probably, and I might even take T-J at the same time so I can move into the Indian Ocean on G2.  (A tactic I’ve always wanted to do…)

Absolutely, completely, 100% in agreement. You don’t measure the loss of a German fighter as 10 IPCs, but as a loss in flexibility in both attack and defense for the rest of the game. It’s like losing a bomber on the first turn, only worse because bombers don’t couple as defensive units.

You’ve obviously never lost 2 infantry to a defending bomber before, have you? :)

Ouch, I sure haven’t but I can imagine the pain. :-(

That’s an interesting battle if you think about it- a bunch of bomber crews parked on the ground firing pistols at hoards of infantry… and winning.

Yea it is.  BTW, the instance was this:

Britian put a bomber in India.

Japan attacked amphibiously with 2 infantry off East Indies. (No other units were suspected to be needed.)

I can only assume that England did not notice that a transport from Australia could bring 2 infantry to India, or thought it was going elsewhere.

@88:

As I said before there’s alot more to attacks than IPC value of pieces destroyed. IMO the R1 Ukraine battle is one of those attacks. It sets the tone, it kills a precious German fighter, it helps lower the % chance of things going well for Germany on G1 attacks.

And it’s not the death knell for Russian armor. Only use two in the attack, and slowly (or quickly if so desired) replenish Russian armored forces. The battle favors Russia, and there’s no room IMO to base decisions on the chance of bad dice. You could just as easily factor in the chance of overwhelmingly good dice, which makes no sense. I choose to base my battles on odds.

So do I, except my odds say go into WR heavy, wipe in 1 round, and reduce the german shots at you. VERY VERY VERY LITTLE RISK of not prevailing. If you do, your dice were so bad you were going to lose anyway. Plus, bid units to Ukraine dont affect the strategy.

Second, you easily retake Caucus/Ukraine Ussr2

Yea, I like that method too, at times.

I’ve seen the E. Europe, Ukraine, Belorussia approach too.  Gotta be risky has hell, but he successfully destroyed two of my fighters on R1 and a Jap fighter with England on UK1 in FIC.

BTW, I like the 3 Infnatry, 3 Armor buy for R1.  Gives you lotsa tanks to play with, especially if you don’t over expose in Ukraine.

Jen, I FINALLY have an example of bad dice that beats your averages…

4 Russian FIGs attacking Japan forces in Novo with an AA gun…
FOUR FIGs SHOT DOWN BY AA FIRE!

And that immediately after the US attacked German forces in Ukraine that had an AA gun, and the US lost a FIG and a BOM to AA fire.

Although, I have to admit that, since I am playing one of the axis powers, I am actually HAPPY about those dice :-)

I do agree squirecam. Killing W Russia alone limits losses and ensures overwhelming success. With an 8 infantry build it leaves you in a great position numerically on the front. That’s an incredibly solid opening.

But I’ll admit it- I like killing the German fighter, and forcing Germany to respond in more spots. I like being aggressive and setting the tone of the game. For me the opening move transcends IPC values. It’s a statement to your opponent. And believe it or not, in countless games where both myself and my adversaries attack the Ukraine as a standard move, 90% of the time the Russian player seems to end up taking it with 2 armor, and that’s only bringing 2 in the first place.

Can’t explain it, but the gods of war (or the gods of boardgames simulating war) seem to smile on the aggressor  :evil:

@Jennifer:

Yea, I like that method too, at times.

I’ve seen the E. Europe, Ukraine, Belorussia approach too.  Gotta be risky has hell, but he successfully destroyed two of my fighters on R1 and a Jap fighter with England on UK1 in FIC.

BTW, I like the 3 Infnatry, 3 Armor buy for R1.  Gives you lotsa tanks to play with, especially if you don’t over expose in Ukraine.

how would you take eastern europe,ukraine and belorussia?

@ncscswitch:

Jen, I FINALLY have an example of bad dice that beats your averages…

4 Russian FIGs attacking Japan forces in Novo with an AA gun…
FOUR FIGs SHOT DOWN BY AA FIRE!

And that immediately after the US attacked German forces in Ukraine that had an AA gun, and the US lost a FIG and a BOM to AA fire.

Although, I have to admit that, since I am playing one of the axis powers, I am actually HAPPY about those dice :-)

DAAK, dear?

And yea, that is pretty erronious dice results!

I had a transport of mine shoot down two planes though.  That was fun!

Cyan:

I was attacked in EE with 3 infantry, 1 fighter, 1 armor
Ukraine by 2 armor, 3 infantry, 1 artillery, 1 fighter
Everything else into WRU.  (I misspoke, it was not Belorussia….that’s normally the 3rd point, Belo, WRU and Ukr, in a 3 prong attack by Russia.)

That’s the only situation that causes me to pause when attacking the Ukraine- the perfect strafe. Killing everything but the fighter forces (for me) an agonizing decision- to stay or retreat. I think it depends on how the W Russia battle went, as well as how many hits the Ukrainian defenders inflicted on the Russian attackers. IMO, if you’ve only got a couple of tanks left- kill the fighter. If the Ukrainians only killed your infantry- falling back is suddenly an option, as you keep artillery and armor.

I’ve made both decisions- falling back or continuing- a bunch of times. More often than not I’ve wished I had killed the fighter later in the game.

It also depends on your build…
Having some high-punch units as part of the R1 build has a huge impact on whether or not you can afford to lose the ARM…

Absolutely- good point.

3/3 or 2/2/2 allows more risk with the armor. I usually go 5/1/1 even with a Ukraine strike, but take 2 armor to W Russia and 2 to the Ukraine fight. I know it’s a little dicey but it’s still a win by the odds. And I’ve come to depend more on artillery with Russia lately- it’s not as nerve-wracking to leave artie sitting on the front as it is precious armor… not as cost effective either.

I don’t mind loosing the tanks because this is Revised, not 2nd Ed.  That means my tanks work just as well for defense as offense, so I’m gunna take something with me, probably 2 somethings if I have 3 armor left.  Meanwhile, I have 3 infantry, 3 armor from my build comming anyway.

And Jen just reinforced my point…

If you ahve other ARM in the pipeline, losing some or all of your initial ARM is NOT as devastating to Russia as it otherwise would be.

But if you play a DEFENSIVE Russia (Mostly INF, perhaps with some ART thrown in, or a single ARM on R1), then you probably want to go West Russia and Belorussia rather than lose your initial ARM in Ukraine.

i cant seem to stay away from the 3inf 1 arm 1fig buy on r1 i feel that there are just too many benefits of a 3rd fig on r2

that is a solid buy Noob.

Then it is just a matter of what you do with your existing units…