Balanced?

@Raply112 Hope you enjoy it!

@FranceNeedsMorePower said in Balanced?:

@AndrewAAGamer May be able to help you with your balance questions. I believe he has play tested the game or something.

Yes, I was a play tester. As I mentioned in another post…

What the testers tried to achieve was a back and forth contest. German forces at first are far more powerful than the Russians. Therefore, the Russian are battling to hold off the Germans as long as possible to give Operation Uranus as many troops as possible. Then, once Operation Uranus explodes onto the map the Germans are reeling and trying to maintain their gains while the Russians push them steadily back. Finally, can Operation Winter Storm occur with enough troops in time to reverse the recent Russian gains and give the Germans a victory or do the Russians hold on for their victory?

@AndrewAAGamer Thanks for clarifying! :)

@FranceNeedsMorePower I just played a game with a friend (for 7 turns). As the Germans I was able to take most of Stalingrad, but I had committed almost all German units (the Romanians were used for defense). It is hard to say how it would have turned out if we had finished.

The income from Stalingrad is a rather gamey mechanism but it does encourage the Germans to press hard.

We liked the game and will try the Operation Uranus scenario next. I would like to have a Case Blue scneario just covering the first 7 turns as well.

For those have trouble as the Germans, I suggest just attack hard and don’t forget to focus you air power. Remember that the Soviets have to counterattack in contested areas. It is often worthwhile to take an AT gun or artillery as loss to benefit from the force multiplier rule.

@RogerCooper Hello, to be able to get a good grasp on the game you need to be able to play the full game a few times. You wouldn’t be able to get a good feel for the game until you play the full game out. If you have very limited time than I would only play operation Uranus. Anytime where you have more time, I would play Race to Stalingrad, which is also a lot funnier because you can see the shifts a lot more. The income does actually pressure the Germans to go hard. Without collecting a decent amount of income, at least 30 is needed, they won’t be able to win the game. The more you stock up, the more you get to use to surprise the Russians with your counter attack (Operation Winter Storm). I do agree with the force multiplier idea you have. I also agree that the Romanian/Italian units should be used for defending the region board. Glad you had fun!

I will add that we have had the game since July. We have played about 20ish games, but have only played Race to Stalingrad. Early games were more about learning the rules and getting a feel for the best tasctics. Of those 20 games, The Soviets have won the majority of the games, and it typically is not even close, with the Germans barely getting onto the city map. I am not saying the Germans have not won in our games, but those wins are few.

I would be interested in reading about what strategies other players are using as the Germans? My current read is that that it is unbalanced in favour of the Soviets.

@jim010 I had no problem as the Germans getting into Stalingrad, despite some bad die rolling. Every unit near Stalingrad needs to attack every turn pushing towards Stalingrad. The Soviets just run out of units.

@jim010 said in Balanced?:

I will add that we have had the game since July. We have played about 20ish games, but have only played Race to Stalingrad. Early games were more about learning the rules and getting a feel for the best tasctics. Of those 20 games, The Soviets have won the majority of the games, and it typically is not even close, with the Germans barely getting onto the city map. I am not saying the Germans have not won in our games, but those wins are few.

I would be interested in reading about what strategies other players are using as the Germans? My current read is that that it is unbalanced in favour of the Soviets.

The Germans are the attackers and thus are more difficult to play. Over time, as you learn the better German strategies, it should end up being balanced.

I would say push hard and make as many good attacks as you can early on the Regional Map while the Germans have a big advantage in numbers. It should not be difficult to push the Russians to the brink on the Stalingrad map before they launch Uranus.

Make sure you get German infantry on to the Stalingrad map for the force multiplier.

@AndrewAAGamer said in Balanced?:

@jim010 said in Balanced?:

I will add that we have had the game since July. We have played about 20ish games, but have only played Race to Stalingrad. Early games were more about learning the rules and getting a feel for the best tasctics. Of those 20 games, The Soviets have won the majority of the games, and it typically is not even close, with the Germans barely getting onto the city map. I am not saying the Germans have not won in our games, but those wins are few.

I would be interested in reading about what strategies other players are using as the Germans? My current read is that that it is unbalanced in favour of the Soviets.

The Germans are the attackers and thus are more difficult to play. Over time, as you learn the better German strategies, it should end up being balanced.

I would say push hard and make as many good attacks as you can early on the Regional Map while the Germans have a big advantage in numbers. It should not be difficult to push the Russians to the brink on the Stalingrad map before they launch Uranus.

Make sure you get German infantry on to the Stalingrad map for the force multiplier.

I dunno, if he’s truly played 20 games I think he’s allowed a strong opinion on balance… I have nowhere near the same playtime but my early opinion is that it feels very imbalanced in favor of the Soviets.

@Hansolo88 Sorry you think I am lying about how much I have played, but I have reported on my experience. And yes, I really have played 20ish games. I have had this game since July 4th, so I have had plenty of time with it. I have played a variety of players, but I have 1 player that I have played most of my games with. Most wins are with the Soviets, as I reported. I am asking what strategies others are using to see if we can do things differently to pull a German win more oftren.

@jim010 said in Balanced?:

@Hansolo88 Sorry you think I am lying about how much I have played, but I have reported on my experience. And yes, I really have played 20ish games. I have had this game since July 4th, so I have had plenty of time with it. I have played a variety of players, but I have 1 player that I have played most of my games with. Most wins are with the Soviets, as I reported. I am asking what strategies others are using to see if we can do things differently to pull a German win more oftren.

Oh my apologies, I assumed you were genuine and I was agreeing with you on the balance concerns. It feels like a combination of factors mitigate the German advantages and tilt the game heavily in favor of the Soviets, though in any Axis and Allies game the dice rolls will sometimes swing one way or another.

@AndrewAAGamer So far, our German tactics are to not hit every last Soviet unit on the region board, but at least push them to the north of the Don. When losing units, we are now choosing to lose artillery, Stugs, and even tanks in order to keep the force multipilers to enter the city map with. If we can preserve the force multipliers AND get them onto the city map AND get them in early AND approach from the north and center/south, they have had a decent chance of winning. But it is hard to meet all those conditions. I would add that we are not using the optional rules, as it seems to benefit the Soviets anyways.

I have only played 2 games, the first of which was an absolute slaughter by the soviets. This was to be expected though, as with most AAA games the axis generally lose until the proper strategies are “figured out”. Plus learning game mechanics is a huge part as this game is more unique.

The second game was much much closer, and the germans did win, but there was a relatively large misplay by the soviets (not realizing how operation Winter Storm works) and we had bad weather the first 4 rounds after operation Uranus was launched, so none of those new soviet planes could attack.

Time will certainly tell, but I definitely think the Germans are harder to play and have to blitzkrieg harder than you’ve ever blitzkrieg’d before.

This is just an idea, but should the Germans instead of crushing the soviets really hard early on just focus on a really strong supply line with troops into Stalingrad? Basically only aiming for the victory condition’s.

@FranceNeedsMorePower I don’t think so for a few reasons.

1. The axis generally have no issues with supply before Operation Uranus.
2. The Soviets get to build units immediately whereas the axis do not, so the more RPs the soviets get the more the axis have to deal with, eventually the axis forces will get whittled down to nothing.
3. The axis will need Operation Winter Storm to be effective to win. That comes from all the RP’s you get to bank during the game. If OWS doesn’t get going, is too small, too slow etc the game will probably end in a Soviet Victory.

@Daaras Yeah, makes sense. They need to collect as much income as possible.

I find that in our games the Germans must get onto the City Map quickly (including from the north) AND try to maintain few casualties for any shot at winning. Pitomnik and Rynok are a must for entry points so far.

@jim010 said in Balanced?:

@AndrewAAGamer So far, our German tactics are to not hit every last Soviet unit on the region board, but at least push them to the north of the Don.

Pushing them north of the Don is a minimum. I assume you are eliminating them from the rest of the map EXCEPT possibly any Russian reinforcement areas. (For the reason you don’t want to allow them to build multiple units on the Regional map)

I would suggest crossing the Don in the north and getting into the Uranus entry zones, as well as on the western (EDIT: eastern) side too. By having a single unit in each of those zones it means the Russians are not able to move on the first turn of Uranus as they are locked in combat. This slows their counterattack greatly.

When losing units, we are now choosing to lose artillery, Stugs, and even tanks in order to keep the force multipilers to enter the city map with. If we can preserve the force multipliers AND get them onto the city map AND get them in early AND approach from the north and center/south, they have had a decent chance of winning. But it is hard to meet all those conditions. I would add that we are not using the optional rules, as it seems to benefit the Soviets anyways.

Good, you are learning. Artillery and Stugs should definitely be taken before German infantry due to a) the force multiplier on the Stalingrad map and b) with few tanks and fewer planes those units are not as useful as multiplied infantry. Tanks I would still keep.

We found in our testing, with equally experienced players and fair dice, it was nearly impossible for the Germans to gain a Total Victory and if they extended themselves too much they just opened the door for the Russians to get their own Total victory.

My suggestion for the Germans is to push hard, very hard, to kill as many Russian units as possible while the Germans have the numerical advantage and get onto the Stalingrad map as quickly as possible as to enable a collection of good RPs for Winter Storm. Goal should be 55+.

Then back off so Uranus does not wipe you out and prepare a solid defense as to hold Pitomnik for at least a Minor victory and the potential of a Major one.

If you would post your standard opening German attack I could give you advice regarding it.

@AndrewAAGamer This makes me happy, as this was the theory I came up with after my two games. Artillery are probably the first unit to be taken under almost every circumstance. Especially as they don’t buff infantry in this version.

I am of the belief that the Germans must blitzkrieg as hard as they possibly can. Getting into the city is way more important than killing stragglers on the region board.

Hold pitomnik, and try to use Winter Storm to reopen the supply from the south. It’s doable, but not easy.

I also found that bombing the ferries was quite helpful early as you generally get free kills with no risk of them attacking back. Especially once/if the Soviets supply lines are only from across the Volga