Axis & Allies 1914: Round Robin

@Cernel said in Some cases of transport-related rules across "Axis & Allies" games from Classic to the most recent ones:

@Krieghund said in Some cases of transport-related rules across "Axis & Allies" games from Classic to the most recent ones:

@Cernel Cases 1 and 2 are legal in versions up to and including Revised OOB, but not legal in Revised LHTR or later. Cases 3 through 5 are not legal in any version.

Even though you stated
@Krieghund said in Some cases of transport-related rules across "Axis & Allies" games from Classic to the most recent ones:

@Cernel Forget what I said here to the contrary, and go with the prior rulings. I have edited my above answers in accordance with this.

I’ve seen that you have not yet edited this post.

Does this mean that, in this case, you stand by this latest clarification of yours (which should be taken as prevalent)?

No. I did not edit the post because I amended this answer in a later post in this thread (which was made before I edited the posts).

So, summarizing, it seems that, to my first two cases at the first post of this topic, specifically
@Cernel said in Some cases of transport-related rules across "Axis & Allies" games from Classic to the most recent ones:

A transport has one or two units already on board at the start of the turn, does not load any more units, moves into a hostile sea zone during the same turn and does not offload any units during Combat Move, partakes to a successful sea battle without being removed and offloads any number of its cargo into an own or allied territory during the subsequent Non-Combat Move phase.

A transport has one or two units already on board at the start of the turn, starts the turn inside a hostile sea zone and neither moves nor loads any units nor offloads any units during Combat Move, partakes to a successful sea battle without being removed and offloads any number of its cargo into an own or allied territory during the subsequent Non-Combat Move phase.

we have two possible official answers (both from you).

In this topic, you said that
@Krieghund said in Some cases of transport-related rules across "Axis & Allies" games from Classic to the most recent ones:

@Cernel Cases 1 and 2 are legal in versions up to and including Revised OOB, but not legal in Revised LHTR or later.

whereas, based on what you said previously and I quoted at this post, I understand that your answer based on those answers would be something like

Cases 1 and 2 are legal in Revised OOB and the original Europe and Pacific, but not legal in the Classic games nor in Revised LHTR or later.

Which one is the correct ruling?

The second one, as I stated in my amended post above.

If you will, please don’t just tell me to go with whatever you said previously: if you are going with the previous rulings, I’d like to know on what they are based.

Would it be because of the concept that cargo inside a transport which took part in a battle is considered having taken part in the battle too (and therefore cannot do anything during the subsequent Noncombat Move phase) coupled with the fact that every Classic rules-book is missing a special rule like the one in Revised OOB stating that

Transports that have been in combat may either load or offload (not both) during this phase, but not if they have retreated from combat this turn.

If this is not the reason, what is the reason?

Yes, that’s the reason.

I understand that, as an official answerer, you can just limit yourself to say what’s what, but I would like to know the reasons behind the rulings at least for those which (apparently) changed over time or got answers at variance with each other if that is not too much to ask.

I think this was all covered adequately in the “Offloading in Both Combat and Noncombat Movement” thread that you linked. There’s no reason to go over it again.

As a side note, I apologize for not consulting that thread before I answered here initially. I was going from memory, which is always a bad thing to do when dealing with Revised OOB, for reasons discussed in that thread.

Trying to make a summary of a number of my topics, I believe that we can divide the matter into three main cases, namely “1”, “2” and “3”, the latter being actually “1+2”.

A transport with 2 units already on board at start turn offloads 1 unit during Combat Move (does not take part in any battles) and offloads the other unit during Noncombat Move (both units being offloaded into the same territory, which was enemy owned during Combat Move and is friendly during Noncombat Move).

A transport with 1 or 2 units already on board at start turn takes part in a battle (and does not offload any units during Conduct Combat) and offloads all or part of the units during Noncombat move (into a friendly territory).

A transport with 2 units already on board at start tun takes part in a battle and offloads 1 unit during Conduct Combat and offloads the other unit during Noncombat Move (both units being offloaded into the same territory, which was enemy owned during Conduct Combat and is friendly during Noncombat Move).

First of all, have we conclusively clarified that (for every rules-set) whether or not a transport moved before amphibiously offloading or taking part in a battle on the same turn is absolutely irrelevant for whatever it can do during Noncombat Move? Meaning that it would be completely pointless to split the aforementioned three cases into two cases each (for a total of six cases), stating whether the transport moved or not before offloading in Combat Move or taking part in combat. Correct?

Yes.

Secondarily, are we splitting all actual (WW2 and strategic) Axis & Allies games from Classic 1st Edition to the most recent ones into two main groups each of which has either all the above three cases (“1”, “2” and “1+2”) legal or illegal, or are there any such games which have only some of the above three cases legal and the rest illegal?

This grouping is correct.

Either way, I’d like to have the full list of them (Again, it does not need to be an actual list: something like “this full sequence of actions is illegal in every game since Revised LHTR but was legal in Revised OOB and every game beforehand” would be just as good.).

To be clear, I see two cases here.

If I take what you said at the post to which I’m replying now as prevailing over whatever you said in the past and I quoted at this post, what I understand is that,

for the Classic games, 1 and 1+2 are illegal but 2 is legal. for Europe, Pacific and Revised OOB, 1, 2 and 1+2 are all legal. for Revised LHTR and later games, 1, 2 and 1+2 are all illegal.

If I take what you said in the past and I quoted at this post as prevailing over whatever you said at the post to which I’m replying now, what I understand is that,

for the Classic games, Revised LHTR and later games, 1, 2 and 1+2 are all illegal. for Europe, Pacific and Revised OOB, 1, 2 and 1+2 are all legal.

(However, I’m quite unsure about (the original) Europe and Pacific.)

So take your time and let me/us know if you will. I understand that it’s a lot of rules-sets to be sure. Thank you.

For Classic and Revised LHTR and later, all are illegal.
For Europe, Pacific, and LHTR OOB, all are legal.

From the time we played online at the legendary “Game Table Online (GTO)”, I have kept some file documents of the bids we made at the beginning of the matches. These are actually Custom Setups. Here is the pdf files: https://www.dropbox.com/s/80ejfkvzh7f57fv/A%26A Custom setups.pdf?dl=0

Axis & Allies Custom Setup:
WHAT: As an alternative to the traditional beginning set-up for the game, bidding allows you an optional supplement to a country’s normal starting position. This supplement can be units and/or IPC’s. Bidding is done before play begins. In multi-player games you are also bidding to select a side with the winning bidder generally selecting his partner from those remaining [see recommendations below].

REVISED AXIS & ALLIES: You are bidding to play the AXIS side. Players may start with any bid from the list that follows. Subsequent bids can be made by any other player for any amount that is of less advantage to the axis [further below on the list] than the the current bid. Bidding ends when no one is willing to take a bid of less advantage than the current bid. That winning bidder is an Axis player. If you make an Allied bid, you are still bidding to be Axis, but you are giving those extra units or IPCs to your opponents.

AXIS & ALLIES 1942: You are bidding to be the ALLIED side. Players may start with any bid from the list that follows. Subsequent bids can be made by any other player for any amount that is of less advantage to the allies [further above on the list] than the the current bid. Bidding ends when no one is willing to take a bid of less advantage than the current bid. That winning bidder is an Allied player. If you make an Axis bid, you are still bidding to be Allies, but you are giving those extra units or IPCs to your opponents.

Here is a list of the custom setups you can select in the table:

04b9d07d-3fd0-49d4-8049-97db77192b93-image.png

REVISED EXAMPLE: One player starts the bidding with the number of extra IPCs worth of units he will accept to play the Axis. Then if another players thinks he can do better with less, he’ll bid lower. The players continue alternating bids until no one wishes to go lower. Unless agreed otherwise a Japanese bid is lower than a German bid for the same amount.

For example in REVISED Axis & Allied bidding if Erwin and Winston are playing bidding might go like:

Erwin: “I’ll play Germany +9”. That means he’s willing to take the Axis countries with 9 extra IPCs worth of gear to start the game with.
Winston then says: “I’ll play Japan +9.”
Erwin then counters with: “Germany +8.”
Winston says, “fine… you play Axis.”

So now Erwin gets to start with 8 extra IPCs worth of troops for Germany. Per the list this would mean: an extra tank and infantry in Africa at the beginning of the game.

Note in Axis & Allies 1942 bidding procedes in the opposite direction.

RECOMMENDATION: If players are NOT at similar experience levels - DON’T let bidding decide teams. Especially in 2 vs 2 team games it is recommended that you select partners FIRST and THEN bid. This will avoid the situation where 2 very experienced players are paired against 2 less experienced players and make for more competitive game play.Custom setup in Axis & Allies Revised & Spring 1942 Custom setup in Axis & Allies Revised & Spring 1942

Considering that:

In the measurement what is mainly seen is the height of the stack and The color of the top chip and maybe although less of the second, As well as that a possible misidentification of the quantity should not result in large error deviations.
I think that: The best guarantee is given if the distinction is made by fives of increasing quantity with the characteristics of the change for each fives as obvious as possible. The chip with the highest value should be placed on top, followed by the others in descending order, which should preferably only be gray and up to four, so that the height of the stack represents a corresponding quantity.
I tentatively named it the “pentadic system” from the Greek word “pente” meaning “five”. Τhe relevant table in pdf format at the link: https://www.dropbox.com/s/7utsvihpqec86r6/AA Chips.pdf?dl=0
4333bf6a-baed-4fe8-aa49-6109f0401c85-image.png

Some useful charts and comparisons for the including components, between the various versions of the Axis & Allies boardgame. It is about the number of units, their capabilities and their type names. In the following link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/0kgpp74n68fiew8/A%26A Comparisons.pdf?dl=0

Model Scales:
SOLDIERS: 1/72
TANKS: 1/285
AIRPLANES: 1/900 or larger (2cm for fighters and 4cm for bombers)
SHIPS: 1/4800 to 1/2400
(Νote that as the denominator number increases, the model becomes smaller. That is, a 1/4800 scale model is smaller than a 1/2400 scale model)
614327a5-bdd4-4d6d-bc96-a0827eb3c880-image.png
45c3aecf-2c87-420c-8b79-9b472cb00f75-image.png

@domanmacgee Thanks for your idea, Don.

But such a game (series of games) would be huge. And at the very least you would need new plastic playing pieces for each new era / time period…

One last reply for now.

First, let me hit you up with some pictures of how colors of units for different countries varied in the early days of Hasbro/WotC/AH A&A.

Tanks of the United Kingdom, from A&A Europe/Pacific to A&A Anniversary. (Source: https://boardgamegeek.com/image/424344/) - See the source link for a listing of what piece is from which game.
Axis and Allies - Tanks of the United Kingdom, from A and A Europe/Pacific to A and A Anniversary

And finally, a couple shots of the rarest (non-mistake) pieces in A&A - RN County Class cruisers in Russian Red. These were only done for the first print run of A&A Anniversary. The next time Soviet cruisers were seen in an A&A game (A&A 1942, 1st Edition), they were replaced with Kirov-class cruiser.

First, a comparison shot of all of the cruisers from A&A Anniversary, 1st print. (Source: https://boardgamegeek.com/image/362555/)
All of the cruisers from A and A Anniversary

Next, a clearer picture of those rare Soviet County classes, aligned with the rest of the Soviet Navy in A&A Anniversary. (Source: https://boardgamegeek.com/image/399605/)
The Soviet Navy in A and A Anniversary

I hope that helps somebody.

-Midnight_Reaper

I have put together a video of some of my biggest blunders and lowest luck. Enjoy!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8R-B2AkMWAo

@Karl7:

@CWO:

@Narvik:

Pacific 2001 was the first game with convoy zones, naval bases and air bases, and my favorite, the CAP, Combat Air Patrol, the current scrambling is by far not that good.

Another novel feature of the original Pacific game was that it came with two types of American infantry units (regular infantry and Marines, represented by one sculpt model in two different shades of green) and two American fighter units represented by two different sculpts (though their cost and characteristics in the rules were identical).

And don’t forget the sheer number of bright red toys you got to play with as Japan!

Or that crazy J1 turn where you had to try to get in as many attacks in as possible while your opponents were defending at 1.

Ahhhh, the memories….

Also, don’t forget the unique victory condition. Could result in real cliffhanger games–the US bombing Japan trying to claw back the VC points while Japan tries to hold on/capture India.