L25 Playoff OOB GeneralDisarray (X) V ABH (A) Bid 50

TripleA Manual Gamesave Post: Americans round 17

TripleA Manual Gamesave Post for game: World War II Global 1940 2nd Edition

Game History

Round: 17

    Purchase Units - Americans
        Americans buy 3 artilleries, 2 fighters, 9 infantry, 3 submarines and 2 tactical_bombers; Remaining resources: 0 PUs; 

    Combat Move - Americans
        1 infantry moved from Hawaiian Islands to 26 Sea Zone
        1 artillery moved from Hawaiian Islands to 26 Sea Zone
        1 artillery, 1 infantry and 1 transport moved from 26 Sea Zone to 63 Sea Zone
        1 infantry moved from 63 Sea Zone to New Zealand
        1 artillery moved from 63 Sea Zone to New Zealand
        1 bomber moved from India to 54 Sea Zone
        1 battleship, 6 carriers, 1 cruiser, 9 destroyers and 19 submarines moved from 26 Sea Zone to 54 Sea Zone
        1 fighter moved from Hawaiian Islands to 54 Sea Zone
        10 fighters moved from Queensland to 54 Sea Zone
        1 fighter moved from Hawaiian Islands to 54 Sea Zone
        2 bombers moved from Western United States to 54 Sea Zone
        1 infantry moved from Normandy Bordeaux to Holland Belgium
        1 infantry moved from Northern Italy to Greater Southern Germany
        1 infantry moved from Northern Italy to Greater Southern Germany
        1 fighter moved from 110 Sea Zone to Holland Belgium
        1 fighter moved from 110 Sea Zone to Holland Belgium
        5 fighters and 1 tactical_bomber moved from Yugoslavia to Greater Southern Germany
        1 artillery moved from Rostov to Tambov
              Americans take Tambov from Germans
        1 mech_infantry moved from Romania to Eastern Poland
        1 mech_infantry moved from Northern Italy to Slovakia Hungary
        4 fighters and 1 tactical_bomber moved from Yugoslavia to Slovakia Hungary
        1 fighter moved from Slovakia Hungary to Eastern Poland
        1 infantry moved from Normandy Bordeaux to 110 Sea Zone
        1 aaGun, 1 infantry and 1 transport moved from 110 Sea Zone to 126 Sea Zone
        1 infantry moved from 126 Sea Zone to Norway

    Combat - Americans
        Battle in New Zealand
        Battle in Norway
        Battle in Holland Belgium
            Americans attack with 2 fighters and 1 infantry
            Germans defend with 1 infantry
                Americans roll dice for 2 fighters and 1 infantry in Holland Belgium, round 2 : 1/3 hits, 1.17 expected hits
                Germans roll dice for 1 infantry in Holland Belgium, round 2 : 0/1 hits, 0.33 expected hits
                1 infantry owned by the Germans lost in Holland Belgium
            Americans win, taking New Zealand from Japanese, taking Norway from Germans, taking Holland Belgium from Germans with 2 fighters and 1 infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 3
            Casualties for Germans: 1 infantry
        Battle in Greater Southern Germany
            Americans attack with 5 fighters, 2 infantry and 1 tactical_bomber
            Germans defend with 3 infantry
                Americans roll dice for 5 fighters, 2 infantry and 1 tactical_bomber in Greater Southern Germany, round 2 : 2/8 hits, 3.50 expected hits
                Germans roll dice for 3 infantry in Greater Southern Germany, round 2 : 3/3 hits, 1.00 expected hits
                1 fighter owned by the Americans and 2 infantry owned by the Americans lost in Greater Southern Germany
                2 infantry owned by the Germans lost in Greater Southern Germany
                Americans roll dice for 4 fighters and 1 tactical_bomber in Greater Southern Germany, round 3 : 3/5 hits, 2.67 expected hits
                Germans roll dice for 1 infantry in Greater Southern Germany, round 3 : 0/1 hits, 0.33 expected hits
                1 infantry owned by the Germans lost in Greater Southern Germany
            Americans win with 4 fighters and 1 tactical_bomber remaining. Battle score for attacker is -7
            Casualties for Americans: 1 fighter and 2 infantry
            Casualties for Germans: 3 infantry
        Battle in Slovakia Hungary
            Americans attack with 3 fighters, 1 mech_infantry and 1 tactical_bomber
            Germans defend with 2 infantry
                Americans roll dice for 3 fighters, 1 mech_infantry and 1 tactical_bomber in Slovakia Hungary, round 2 : 2/5 hits, 2.33 expected hits
                Germans roll dice for 2 infantry in Slovakia Hungary, round 2 : 0/2 hits, 0.67 expected hits
                2 infantry owned by the Germans lost in Slovakia Hungary
            Americans win, taking Slovakia Hungary from Germans with 3 fighters, 1 mech_infantry and 1 tactical_bomber remaining. Battle score for attacker is 6
            Casualties for Germans: 2 infantry
        Battle in Eastern Poland
            Americans attack with 1 fighter and 1 mech_infantry
            Germans defend with 1 infantry
                Americans roll dice for 1 fighter and 1 mech_infantry in Eastern Poland, round 2 : 1/2 hits, 0.67 expected hits
                Italians roll dice for 1 infantry in Eastern Poland, round 2 : 0/1 hits, 0.33 expected hits
                1 infantry owned by the Germans lost in Eastern Poland
            Americans win, taking Eastern Poland from Italians with 1 fighter and 1 mech_infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 3
            Casualties for Germans: 1 infantry
        Battle in 54 Sea Zone
            Americans attack with 1 battleship, 3 bombers, 6 carriers, 1 cruiser, 9 destroyers, 12 fighters and 19 submarines
            Japanese defend with 1 artillery, 9 carriers, 2 cruisers, 6 destroyers, 9 fighters, 3 infantry, 20 submarines, 9 tactical_bombers and 2 transports
                Americans roll dice for 19 submarines in 54 Sea Zone, round 2 : 7/19 hits, 6.33 expected hits
                Americans roll dice for 1 battleship, 3 bombers, 6 carriers, 1 cruiser, 9 destroyers and 12 fighters in 54 Sea Zone, round 2 : 8/26 hits, 12.17 expected hits
                Japanese roll dice for 20 submarines in 54 Sea Zone, round 2 : 3/20 hits, 3.33 expected hits
            Units damaged: 3 carriers owned by the Americans
                Japanese roll dice for 9 carriers, 2 cruisers, 6 destroyers, 9 fighters, 9 tactical_bombers and 2 transports in 54 Sea Zone, round 2 : 17/35 hits, 16.50 expected hits
            Units damaged: 1 battleship owned by the Americans
                7 destroyers owned by the Americans and 6 carriers owned by the Americans lost in 54 Sea Zone
                15 submarines owned by the Japanese lost in 54 Sea Zone
                Americans roll dice for 19 submarines in 54 Sea Zone, round 3 : 5/19 hits, 6.33 expected hits
                Americans roll dice for 1 battleship, 3 bombers, 1 cruiser, 2 destroyers and 12 fighters in 54 Sea Zone, round 3 : 10/19 hits, 9.83 expected hits
                Japanese roll dice for 5 submarines in 54 Sea Zone, round 3 : 1/5 hits, 0.83 expected hits
                Japanese roll dice for 9 carriers, 2 cruisers, 6 destroyers, 9 fighters, 9 tactical_bombers and 2 transports in 54 Sea Zone, round 3 : 17/35 hits, 16.50 expected hits
                1 cruiser owned by the Americans, 2 destroyers owned by the Americans, 12 fighters owned by the Americans, 2 bombers owned by the Americans and 1 battleship owned by the Americans lost in 54 Sea Zone
                1 tactical_bomber owned by the Japanese, 1 fighter owned by the Japanese, 6 destroyers owned by the Japanese, 5 submarines owned by the Japanese and 2 cruisers owned by the Japanese lost in 54 Sea Zone
                Americans roll dice for 19 submarines in 54 Sea Zone, round 4 : 9/19 hits, 6.33 expected hits
            Units damaged: 1 carrier owned by the Japanese
                4 carriers owned by the Japanese lost in 54 Sea Zone
                Americans roll dice for 1 bomber in 54 Sea Zone, round 4 : 1/1 hits, 0.67 expected hits
                Japanese roll dice for 8 fighters and 8 tactical_bombers in 54 Sea Zone, round 4 : 7/16 hits, 9.33 expected hits
                Japanese roll dice for 5 carriers and 2 transports in 54 Sea Zone, round 4 : 1/5 hits, 1.67 expected hits
                1 submarine owned by the Americans and 1 bomber owned by the Americans lost in 54 Sea Zone
                1 tactical_bomber owned by the Japanese lost in 54 Sea Zone
                Americans roll dice for 18 submarines in 54 Sea Zone, round 5 : 6/18 hits, 6.00 expected hits
            Units damaged: 2 carriers owned by the Japanese
                2 carriers owned by the Japanese lost in 54 Sea Zone
                Japanese roll dice for 3 carriers and 2 transports in 54 Sea Zone, round 5 : 0/3 hits, 1.00 expected hits
                Americans roll dice for 18 submarines in 54 Sea Zone, round 6 : 8/18 hits, 6.00 expected hits
                3 infantry owned by the Japanese, 1 artillery owned by the Japanese, 2 transports owned by the Japanese and 3 carriers owned by the Japanese lost in 54 Sea Zone
            Japanese and Americans reach a stalemate
            . Battle score for attacker is 33
            Casualties for Americans: 1 battleship, 3 bombers, 6 carriers, 1 cruiser, 9 destroyers, 12 fighters and 1 submarine
            Casualties for Japanese: 1 artillery, 9 carriers, 2 cruisers, 6 destroyers, 1 fighter, 3 infantry, 20 submarines, 2 tactical_bombers and 2 transports
            7 tactical_bombers owned by the Japanese and 8 fighters owned by the Japanese could not land and were killed

    Non Combat Move - Americans

Combat Hit Differential Summary :

Americans regular : -1.00
Japanese regular : -3.17
Italians regular : -0.33
Germans regular : 0.67

Savegame

triplea_41518_17end.tsvg @GeneralDisarray

I did as instructed, which is why I triple checked you really wanted that order of loss. Call it a game, or keep playing?

@gamerman01 There was no retreat or submersion of my units in this battle. This was a suicide mission for the American forces and there was never any intention to retreat as I needed every possible hit to allow the UK and ANZAC to follow up in their turn 17 attacks. My subs fought until TripleA ended the battle since there were no remaining ship units, just planes that could not strike back. I asked GeneralDisarray to confirm his OOL for turn 2 and he confirmed that the destroyers should all be lost before I start taking his carriers and planes.

@GeneralDissaray, I gave you up to 72h to realize your blunder which is more than anyone else would have provided in a Playoff game. keep the planes and ac till last. I dislike the game ending in an OOL blunder, and asked you to be very careful in your selection as this was going to be a very close series of fights and the decisions were tactically as complex as I have ever seen in a match.

I spent quite a bit of time looking at this.

If either of you doesn’t accept my answer, that’s fine because I’m next opponent. I will select a different top player to adjudicate this if my decision is not accepted.

My take is the same whether I was in this tournament or not. I think it is the opinion a common-sense objective bystander would share.

Facts and considerations I highlight:

1. ABH was very polite and patient and careful to document the process throughout.
2. General Disarray clearly gave his decision on what should be lost. Save carriers and planes until last, and let a maximum of 1 plane fall in the water if there is a retreat
3. ABH kept confirming this
4. General Disarray apparently did not look at the map
5. ABH typed out all the units that were taken off and left on the board. If you look at this carefully, you see he didn’t lose a single sub. I don’t think General D noticed.
6. ABH didn’t quite understand the OOL description and took off a plane when the damaged carrier could have been lost
7. The fact that General D chose to damage a carrier in the opening round seems to be inconsistent with saving all carriers and fighters til last

The common-sense opinion of an objective bystander is that if General D were present and playing with you face to face on a board, he’d NEVER have taken off his last destroyer when you were saving all subs

@GeneralDisarray said in L25 Playoff OOB GeneralDisarray (X) V ABH (A) Bid 50:

I cant see the file. I wish I knew what i hit on the crack back. I just want the best outcome of AC and plane and tac units left without falling into the water if you retreat

ABH obliged by typing out the results, and General D responded, apparently consenting for things to continue as they were.

@GeneralDisarray said in L25 Playoff OOB GeneralDisarray (X) V ABH (A) Bid 50:

@Arthur-Bomber-Harris keep the planes and ac till last. Just make sure there’s never a moment you can retreat and the outcome is me losing more than one plane.

I haven’t studied who got better dice. If I wasn’t in the tournament, I would strongly suggest that you agree to go to the moment when General D said “I wish I knew what I hit on the crack back”

With all love and respect for 2 awesome players in the league, both of you contributed to this problem.
When there is a casualty choice, play should stop and the other player open up the map, study the situation and make his choice. Casualty choices should be specific and exact, round by round. Obviously, players get in the habit of facilitating things by giving advance Order of Loss, or saying “save my bombers until last”, but in a mixed fleet battle, General D apparently forgot to say, or assumed it was obvious, “save 1 destroyer if you have a bunch of subs”
But in a big mixed fleet battle, just as ABH warned in advance, this is a big battle and we want to do this right. Since General D repeatedly and clearly said “save carriers and planes, I just don’t want planes splashing in the event of a retreat”, ABH be like, well, that’s crazy, but you said it 3 times.

Back to my opinion. Return to the point where ABH took off only carriers and destroyers, and zero subs, and roll from there.
I can understand if there are strong objections to that, especially if dice went crazy before or after, but if I was a non-caring observer who didn’t know the dice, that’s what I would say.

That said, if players agree, you can do it however you agree, which might for example include starting over from the beginning. Shoot if you can agree on a fair ending result, bypassing all dice, that would be acceptable as well but you probably can’t do that.

I know full well that General D kept giving the same orders that I would interpret the same way as ABH. Lose the last destroyer before any carriers. But I stand by the conclusion that although I don’t think either of you handled this properly, especially if General D wasn’t looking at a map, there’s no way the General would take off his last destroyer if he was facing off against you across the board so that’s obviously not what he meant to happen.

@gamerman01 said in L25 Playoff OOB GeneralDisarray (X) V ABH (A) Bid 50:

But I stand by the conclusion that although I don’t think either of you handled this properly, especially if General D wasn’t looking at a map, there’s no way the General would take off his last destroyer if he was facing off against you across the board

I’m anticipating ABH protest to this statement, so I’ll go ahead and say now, that it’s clear you knew General D was making a very questionable decision which is why you were saying, essentially, “are you SURE”? And General D said yes, so you took the opportunity to wipe out his fleet with subs.
If I were you, I would have said “but you want to save 1 destroyer, right”? otherwise, say “I think you need to look at the map”.
No, you’re not required to be a baby-sitter but my opinion is this is just good sportsmanship.

BUT this result (18 American subs surviving and 15 Jap planes splashing) WILL NOT STAND UNLESS another veteran player rules that it should stand because technically you almost perfectly followed General D’s ill-advised but yet firm and repeated orders and technically won it fair and square.

Let me know if you want a 2nd opinion due to the fact that I’m next opponent. I think Axis-Dominion should be the decider if my views are not agreed upon by you both

You missed my 2nd post, maybe,
You posted right after it

The result of 18 subs remaining and 15 Jap planes splashing is not OK.