PTV Daaras (x+12) vs General Disarray

Game History

Round: 1

    Purchase Units - Americans
        Americans buy 2 carriers, 1 destroyer, 1 submarine and 1 transport; Remaining resources: 1 PUs; 

    Combat Move - Americans

    Non Combat Move - Americans
        1 marine moved from Western United States to 11 Sea Zone
        1 aaGun and 1 infantry moved from Western United States to 11 Sea Zone
        1 fighter moved from Western United States to Hawaiian Islands
        1 transport moved from 27 Sea Zone to 11 Sea Zone
        1 aaGun, 1 battleship, 1 carrier, 1 cruiser, 1 destroyer, 1 fighter, 1 infantry, 1 marine, 1 tactical_bomber and 1 transport moved from 11 Sea Zone to 28 Sea Zone
        1 infantry and 1 marine moved from 28 Sea Zone to Hawaiian Islands
        1 aaGun moved from 28 Sea Zone to Hawaiian Islands
        1 cruiser, 1 destroyer and 1 submarine moved from 27 Sea Zone to 28 Sea Zone
        1 destroyer moved from 36 Sea Zone to 42 Sea Zone
        1 submarine moved from 36 Sea Zone to 42 Sea Zone
        1 fighter moved from Davao to Wake Island
        1 bomber moved from Central United States to Hawaiian Islands
        1 destroyer moved from 28 Sea Zone to 26 Sea Zone
        1 armour moved from Central United States to Western United States
        2 aaGuns, 1 artillery and 1 infantry moved from Eastern United States to Central United States

    Place Units - Americans
        2 carriers and 1 submarine placed in 11 Sea Zone
        1 destroyer and 1 transport placed in 104 Sea Zone

    Turn Complete - Americans
        Americans collect 53 PUs; end with 54 PUs

    Purchase Units - Chinese
        Trigger Chinese Loses Burma Road: Chinese has their production frontier changed to: productionChinese_Burma_Road_Closed
        Chinese buy 4 infantry; Remaining resources: 0 PUs; 

    Combat Move - Chinese
        1 fighter and 6 infantry moved from Szechwan to Yunnan

    Combat - Chinese
        Battle in Yunnan
            Chinese attack with 1 fighter and 6 infantry
            Japanese defend with 1 infantry
            Chinese win, taking Yunnan from Japanese with 1 fighter and 6 infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 3
            Casualties for Japanese: 1 infantry

    Non Combat Move - Chinese
        1 fighter moved from Yunnan to Tsinghai
        2 infantry moved from Hopei to Szechwan
        1 infantry moved from Eastern Sinkiang to Tsinghai
        3 infantry moved from Kansu to Tsinghai
        2 infantry moved from Inner Mongolia to Tsinghai
        1 infantry moved from Shansi to Inner Mongolia

    Place Units - Chinese
        4 infantry placed in Yunnan

    Turn Complete - Chinese
        Chinese collect 14 PUs; end with 14 PUs
        Objective Chinese 1 Burma Road: Chinese met a national objective for an additional 3 PUs; end with 17 PUs

    Purchase Units - British
        British buy 1 fighter and 6 infantry; Remaining resources: 0 PUs; 

    Purchase Units - UK_Pacific
        UK_Pacific buy 2 artilleries and 3 infantry; Remaining resources: 0 PUs; 

    Combat Move - British
        2 fighters moved from United Kingdom to 113 Sea Zone
        1 fighter moved from Scotland to 113 Sea Zone
        1 fighter moved from Gibraltar to 113 Sea Zone
        1 destroyer moved from 112 Sea Zone to 93 Sea Zone
        1 bomber moved from United Kingdom to 93 Sea Zone
        1 tactical_bomber moved from 100 Sea Zone to 98 Sea Zone
        1 destroyer moved from 100 Sea Zone to 98 Sea Zone
        1 fighter moved from Malta to 98 Sea Zone
        1 artillery and 1 infantry moved from Ontario to Quebec
        1 infantry moved from Anglo-Egyptian Sudan to Ethiopia
        1 cruiser moved from 100 Sea Zone to 78 Sea Zone
        1 artillery and 1 infantry moved from Eastern India to 40 Sea Zone
        1 artillery, 1 cruiser, 1 infantry and 1 transport moved from 40 Sea Zone to 78 Sea Zone
        1 artillery and 1 infantry moved from 78 Sea Zone to Ethiopia
        1 cruiser moved from 114 Sea Zone to 113 Sea Zone

    Combat - British
        Battle in 113 Sea Zone
            British attack with 1 cruiser and 4 fighters
            Germans defend with 1 battleship
            British win with 4 fighters remaining. Battle score for attacker is 7
            Casualties for British: 1 cruiser
            Casualties for Germans: 1 battleship
        Battle in 93 Sea Zone
            British attack with 1 bomber and 1 destroyer
            Germans defend with 2 submarines
            Germans and British reach a stalemate
            . Battle score for attacker is -2
            Casualties for British: 1 destroyer
            Casualties for Germans: 1 submarine
        Battle in Ethiopia
            British attack with 1 artillery and 2 infantry
            Italians defend with 1 artillery and 2 infantry
            British win, taking Ethiopia from Italians with 1 artillery and 1 infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 7
            Casualties for British: 1 infantry
            Casualties for Italians: 1 artillery and 2 infantry
        Battle in 98 Sea Zone
            British attack with 1 destroyer, 1 fighter and 1 tactical_bomber
            Italians defend with 1 destroyer and 1 transport
            British win with 1 destroyer, 1 fighter and 1 tactical_bomber remaining. Battle score for attacker is 14
            Casualties for Italians: 1 destroyer and 1 transport

    Non Combat Move - British
        1 fighter and 1 tactical_bomber moved from 98 Sea Zone to Egypt
        1 armour, 1 artillery and 2 infantry moved from Alexandria to Egypt
        1 transport moved from 100 Sea Zone to 98 Sea Zone
        1 aaGun and 1 infantry moved from Malta to 98 Sea Zone
        1 aaGun, 1 infantry and 1 transport moved from 98 Sea Zone to 83 Sea Zone
        1 aaGun and 1 infantry moved from 83 Sea Zone to Egypt
        1 carrier moved from 100 Sea Zone to 83 Sea Zone
        2 infantry moved from Union of South Africa to Rhodesia
        1 destroyer moved from 73 Sea Zone to 83 Sea Zone
        1 destroyer moved from 40 Sea Zone to 78 Sea Zone
        1 fighter and 1 tactical_bomber moved from Eastern India to 83 Sea Zone
        3 aaGuns and 5 infantry moved from Eastern India to Burma
        1 fighter moved from Burma to Eastern India
        1 infantry moved from Western India to Baluchistan
        3 infantry moved from Malaya to Shan State
        1 battleship moved from 132 Sea Zone to 40 Sea Zone
        1 bomber moved from 93 Sea Zone to United Kingdom
        1 transport moved from 112 Sea Zone to 126 Sea Zone
        1 battleship and 1 destroyer moved from 114 Sea Zone to 126 Sea Zone
        2 fighters moved from 113 Sea Zone to Iceland
        2 fighters moved from 113 Sea Zone to United Kingdom
        1 aaGun and 2 infantry moved from Scotland to United Kingdom

    Place Units - British
        1 fighter and 6 infantry placed in United Kingdom

    Turn Complete - British
        Total Cost from Convoy Blockades: 2
            Rolling for Convoy Blockade Damage in 109 Sea Zone. Rolls: 6,2
        British collect 27 PUs (2 lost to blockades); end with 27 PUs
        Objective British 4 Control Convoy Lanes: British met a national objective for an additional 3 PUs; end with 30 PUs
        Objective British 1 Original: British met a national objective for an additional 3 PUs; end with 33 PUs

    Place Units - UK_Pacific
        2 artilleries and 3 infantry placed in Eastern India

    Turn Complete - UK_Pacific
        UK_Pacific collect 17 PUs; end with 17 PUs
        Some Units in Eastern India change ownership: 2 artilleries and 3 infantry

@Daaras F1.tsvg

Game History

Round: 1

    Purchase Units - ANZAC
        ANZAC buy 1 artillery and 2 infantry; Remaining resources: 0 PUs; 

    Combat Move - ANZAC

    Combat - ANZAC

    Non Combat Move - ANZAC
        1 infantry moved from Malaya to Shan State
        1 transport moved from 64 Sea Zone to 65 Sea Zone
        1 infantry moved from New Zealand to 65 Sea Zone
        1 infantry and 1 transport moved from 65 Sea Zone to 64 Sea Zone
        1 destroyer moved from 64 Sea Zone to 35 Sea Zone
        1 cruiser moved from 65 Sea Zone to 54 Sea Zone
        2 fighters moved from New Zealand to Queensland
        2 aaGuns and 2 infantry moved from New South Wales to Queensland
        1 infantry and 1 transport moved from 64 Sea Zone to 55 Sea Zone
        1 infantry moved from 55 Sea Zone to Queensland

    Place Units - ANZAC
        1 artillery and 2 infantry placed in New South Wales

    Turn Complete - ANZAC
        ANZAC collect 10 PUs; end with 10 PUs

    Politics - French
        Trigger Axis Conquer All France Algeria 3 Infantry Place: Neutral_Axis has 1 infantry placed in Algeria
        Trigger Axis Conquer All France Cruiser Place: Neutral_Axis has 1 cruiser placed in 95 Sea Zone
        Trigger Axis Conquer All France Tunisia 3 Infantry Place: Neutral_Axis has 1 infantry placed in Tunisia
        Trigger Axis Conquer All France Destroyer Place: Neutral_Axis has 1 destroyer placed in 95 Sea Zone
        Trigger Axis Conquer All France Southern France 3 Infantry Place: Neutral_Axis has 1 infantry placed in Southern France
        Trigger Axis Conquer All France Southern France 3 Artillery Place: Neutral_Axis has 1 artillery placed in Southern France
        Trigger Axis Conquer All France Morocco 3 Infantry Place: Neutral_Axis has 1 infantry placed in Morocco
        Trigger Axis Conquer All France Syria 3 Infantry Place: Neutral_Axis has 1 infantry placed in Syria
        Trigger Axis Conquer All France French West Africa 3 Infantry Place: Neutral_Axis has 1 infantry placed in French West Africa
        Trigger Axis Conquer All France Tunisia 2 activates a trigger called: Trigger Axis Conquer All France Tunisia 3
        Trigger Axis Conquer All France Tunisia 3: Neutral_Axis captures territory Tunisia
        Trigger Axis Conquer All France French West Africa 2 activates a trigger called: Trigger Axis Conquer All France French West Africa 3
        Trigger Axis Conquer All France French West Africa 3: Neutral_Axis captures territory French West Africa
        Trigger Axis Conquer All France French Central Africa 2 activates a trigger called: Trigger Axis Conquer All France French Central Africa 3
        Trigger Axis Conquer All France French Central Africa 3: Neutral_Axis captures territory French Central Africa
        Trigger Axis Conquer All France Algeria 2 activates a trigger called: Trigger Axis Conquer All France Algeria 3
        Trigger Axis Conquer All France Algeria 3: Neutral_Axis captures territory Algeria
        Trigger Axis Conquer All France Syria 2 activates a trigger called: Trigger Axis Conquer All France Syria 3
        Trigger Axis Conquer All France Syria 3: Neutral_Axis captures territory Syria
        Trigger Axis Conquer All France Morocco 2 activates a trigger called: Trigger Axis Conquer All France Morocco 3
        Trigger Axis Conquer All France Morocco 3: Neutral_Axis captures territory Morocco
        Trigger Axis Conquer All France Algeria 3 Infantry Place activates a trigger called: Trigger Axis Conquer All France Algeria 3 Infantry Remove
        Trigger Axis Conquer All France Algeria 3 Infantry Remove: has removed 1 infantry owned by French in Algeria
        Trigger Axis Conquer All France Cruiser Place activates a trigger called: Trigger Axis Conquer All France Cruiser Remove
        Trigger Axis Conquer All France Cruiser Remove: has removed 1 cruiser owned by French in 95 Sea Zone
        Trigger Axis Conquer All France Tunisia 3 Infantry Place activates a trigger called: Trigger Axis Conquer All France Tunisia 3 Infantry Remove
        Trigger Axis Conquer All France Tunisia 3 Infantry Remove: has removed 1 infantry owned by French in Tunisia
        Trigger Axis Conquer All France Destroyer Place activates a trigger called: Trigger Axis Conquer All France Destroyer Remove
        Trigger Axis Conquer All France Destroyer Remove: has removed 1 destroyer owned by French in 95 Sea Zone
        Trigger Axis Conquer All France Southern France 3 Infantry Place activates a trigger called: Trigger Axis Conquer All France Southern France 3 Infantry Remove
        Trigger Axis Conquer All France Southern France 3 Infantry Remove: has removed 1 infantry owned by French in Southern France
        Trigger Axis Conquer All France Southern France 3 Artillery Place activates a trigger called: Trigger Axis Conquer All France Southern France 3 Artillery Remove
        Trigger Axis Conquer All France Southern France 3 Artillery Remove: has removed 1 artillery owned by French in Southern France
        Trigger Axis Conquer All France Morocco 3 Infantry Place activates a trigger called: Trigger Axis Conquer All France Morocco 3 Infantry Remove
        Trigger Axis Conquer All France Morocco 3 Infantry Remove: has removed 1 infantry owned by French in Morocco
        Trigger Axis Conquer All France French Madagascar 2 activates a trigger called: Trigger Axis Conquer All France French Madagascar 3
        Trigger Axis Conquer All France French Madagascar 3: Neutral_Axis captures territory French Madagascar
        Trigger Axis Conquer All France Syria 3 Infantry Place activates a trigger called: Trigger Axis Conquer All France Syria 3 Infantry Remove
        Trigger Axis Conquer All France Syria 3 Infantry Remove: has removed 1 infantry owned by French in Syria
        Trigger Axis Conquer All France Southern France 2 activates a trigger called: Trigger Axis Conquer All France Southern France 3
        Trigger Axis Conquer All France Southern France 3: Neutral_Axis captures territory Southern France
        Trigger Axis Conquer All France French Indo China 2 activates a trigger called: Trigger Axis Conquer All France French Indo China 3
        Trigger Axis Conquer All France French Indo China 3: Neutral_Axis captures territory French Indo China
        Trigger Axis Conquer All France French Guiana 2 activates a trigger called: Trigger Axis Conquer All France French Guiana 3
        Trigger Axis Conquer All France French Guiana 3: Neutral_Axis captures territory French Guiana
        Trigger Axis Conquer All France French West Africa 3 Infantry Place activates a trigger called: Trigger Axis Conquer All France French West Africa 3 Infantry Remove
        Trigger Axis Conquer All France French West Africa 3 Infantry Remove: has removed 1 infantry owned by French in French West Africa

    Combat Move - French
        1 fighter moved from United Kingdom to Iceland

    Non Combat Move - French
        1 destroyer moved from 74 Sea Zone to 83 Sea Zone

    Turn Complete - French

Combat Hit Differential Summary :

@Daaras Full scramble off iceland.

@Daaras R2.tsvg

Game History

Round: 2

    Purchase Units - Russians
        Russians buy 1 armour, 2 artilleries, 9 infantry and 1 mech_infantry; Remaining resources: 0 PUs; 

    Combat Move - Russians

    Combat - Russians

    Non Combat Move - Russians
        2 aaGuns, 3 artilleries and 14 infantry moved from Leningrad to Northern Belarus
        2 aaGuns, 1 artillery and 2 infantry moved from Bryansk to Kursk
        5 infantry moved from Russia to Bryansk
        1 armour and 1 mech_infantry moved from Northern Belarus to Leningrad
        2 infantry moved from Northern Caucasus to Rostov
        3 infantry moved from Sakha to Amur
        2 aaGuns and 12 infantry moved from Buryatia to Amur
        1 armour and 1 mech_infantry moved from Ukraine to Kursk
        1 armour and 1 mech_infantry moved from Kursk to Bryansk

    Place Units - Russians
        3 infantry placed in Leningrad
        2 artilleries and 1 infantry placed in Ukraine
        Russians undo move 2.
        1 artillery and 2 infantry placed in Ukraine
        1 armour, 1 artillery, 4 infantry and 1 mech_infantry placed in Russia

    Turn Complete - Russians
        Russians collect 46 PUs; end with 46 PUs

Combat Hit Differential Summary :

@Daaras This is a rule I was told that stands in the 20 years I have been playing because of the wording in the rules. And not because some player says otherwise. You cannot participate in an amphibious assault after creating and leaving a hostile sea zone. Now you can pick up and drop if you do not leave the sea zone. But because my boats are there and you declare war it becomes a hostile sea zone. Even you read the rule out in your message. Can’t tell how many time I’ve been stumped by this rule. If you wish to move your units differently not being at war beside with France then you are welcome to. I am welcome to hear gammerman’s opinion on this not some random players.

Hi guys, thanks for bringing me in,

Panther is an official Q&A man, too, and his answers A, B, C, D all look correct to me.

My goal is to answer the rulebook questions you have, so I may not explain every angle unless you ask follow up questions.
I need to say I am not sure what GeneralDisarray meant, at times, like with the phrase “creating and leaving a hostile zone”, so I am not really responding to everything you each have said but I think my answers will take care of your needs.

I am using the Europe 2nd edition rulebook and I think Daaras posted 2nd edition Pacific which is fine, same rules, but my page number won’t coincide.

The end of page 13 and beginning of page 14 covers “sea units starting in enemy-occupied sea zones”.

The page 12 blue box explains how to apply this rule when you first declare war.

I’ll just try to clearly apply these rules to your situation here, and if you have additional questions I’d be happy to help.

I see GeneralDisarray moved an ANZ cruiser to New Hebrides and a destroyer to Paulau/Carolines. In each of these zones, Japan has ground units on islands and none on transports.

This creates issues for Japan.
Of course if Japan does not declare war J2, then the ANZ ships are neutral, not at war, and have no effect.

But of course the question is if Japan declares war against UK/ANZAC on J2, what are the effects of these ANZ ships.

The Page 12 rules apply since Japan is declaring war. “During your Combat Move phase in which you entered into a state of war, your transports that are already in sea zones that have just become hostile may be loaded in those sea zones (but not in other hostile sea zones). In effect, transports may be loaded in their initial sea zones for amphibious assaults before war is declared, while the sea zone is friendly.”

So, the rule page that Daaras posted.

Cruisers act as transports in PtV.

So in each of the sea zones ANZ intruded upon, you have the same situation for Japan if Japan declares war on UK/ANZ

(Bullet points on page 14) These are Japan’s choices:

1. Stay in the zone and conduct combat
2. Leave zone, load units if desired, conduct combat elsewhere
3. Leave zone, to load units or to establish a retreat route, return to zone and conduct combat
4. Leave zone and don’t conduct combat

Then you add in the rule for a new DOW,
Japan can load ground units in the zone, which is normally not allowed, but only for amphibious assaults.
The other 4 bullet points of page 14 still apply.

I should mention that “evil sneaky Karl move” is most likely the notorious loophole in the rules.
This does NOT apply in your situation here.

Because the political status of UK is married to ANZ, then there is the loophole that the UK could sail a surface warship into a Japanese fleet that is clearly looking to load up a huge army onto multiple transports and go take over lots of territory. Then ANZ does the unprovoked declaration of war on Japan, so when we get to poor Japan’s turn, she is not allowed to use the page 12 rule of loading transports for amphibious assault when you’ve just declared war on a power, because she can’t declare war on the UK. Thanks to ANZ, the UK/ANZ was already at war with Japan when we came to Japan’s turn, so Japan can’t declare war on UK/ANZ and the page 12 rule won’t apply.
It is unfortunate, but if both players understand this rule, it can be dealt with. #1 There are serious ramifications to an unprovoked DOW on Japan, especially early.
#2 Japan could leave some ground units on the tranports.

Again, I only mention this “loophole” in case it is contributing at all to the confusion.
There was no UK involvement like this and no ANZ DOW in your game

Lastly, because I think it may help and possibly be appreciated, I’ll state it in a negative way.

What harm did the cold, calculating veteran GeneralDisarray cause?

IF Japan declares war on UK/ANZ, then

1. Japan can’t noncombat move any of the ground units on Carolines or New Hebrides. To get the marine off New Hebrides this turn, Japan has to amphibiously assault some other enemy island
2. Japan can’t use transports to noncombat move OTHER ground units, for example, Japan can’t transport any ground from Japan to Korea, Manchuria, or any of the other friendly territories up there
3. Japan has to move all ships in the enemy zones to destination zones without seeing combat results (where destination could include the starting, hostile, zone)

But…
Japan can still fully load up all 3 transports with Carolines army and go take Allied territories.

Any remaining questions, please give me a chance to clear them up, have fun guys

@Daaras Its my fault for not knowing the rules I suppose. I have been stopped a few times like this and it’s frustrating. Not knowing this rule I would have done America differently as well. You can take this game as well for that as it would seemingly be too much to unwind. Gg glad I learned something. I’ll post it up soon.