PTV Daaras (x+12) vs General Disarray

Daaras

GeneralDisarray

GeneralDisarray

Game History

Round: 2

    Purchase Units - Russians
        Russians buy 1 armour, 2 artilleries, 9 infantry and 1 mech_infantry; Remaining resources: 0 PUs; 

    Combat Move - Russians

    Combat - Russians

    Non Combat Move - Russians
        2 aaGuns, 3 artilleries and 14 infantry moved from Leningrad to Northern Belarus
        2 aaGuns, 1 artillery and 2 infantry moved from Bryansk to Kursk
        5 infantry moved from Russia to Bryansk
        1 armour and 1 mech_infantry moved from Northern Belarus to Leningrad
        2 infantry moved from Northern Caucasus to Rostov
        3 infantry moved from Sakha to Amur
        2 aaGuns and 12 infantry moved from Buryatia to Amur
        1 armour and 1 mech_infantry moved from Ukraine to Kursk
        1 armour and 1 mech_infantry moved from Kursk to Bryansk

    Place Units - Russians
        3 infantry placed in Leningrad
        2 artilleries and 1 infantry placed in Ukraine
        Russians undo move 2.
        1 artillery and 2 infantry placed in Ukraine
        1 armour, 1 artillery, 4 infantry and 1 mech_infantry placed in Russia

    Turn Complete - Russians
        Russians collect 46 PUs; end with 46 PUs

Combat Hit Differential Summary :

Daaras

@GeneralDisarray I didn’t look at your ANZAC moves until now, and I think we’re going to need to have a rules conversation. Are you under the impression that I am not allowed to move my units if Japan declares on ANZAC? Somewhat similar to a sneaky Karl?

I’m not entirely sure as to what the rule is, and I’ve been trying to find an answer and I found this in an old sneaky karl thread: https://www.axisandallies.org/forums/topic/34014/the-sneaky-carl/19

" Once a state of war is entered into, all
territories and sea zones controlled by or containing
units belonging to the power or powers on which you
declared war instantly become hostile to your units,
and the normal restrictions of moving into or through
hostile spaces apply, with one exception. During
your Combat Move phase in which you entered into
a state of war, your transports that are already in sea
zones that have just become hostile may be loaded in
those sea zones (but not in other hostile sea zones).
In effect, transports may be loaded in their initial
sea zones for amphibious assaults before war is
declared, while the sea zone is still friendly."

The Pripet Martian asks:
Just to clarify, does this mean that:

A) Transports can load, leave the sea zone in combat movement to avoid participation in the attack, end their movement in a friendly sea zone and offload.
B) Transports leaving a sea zone in combat movement to avoid participation in the attack cannot load.
C) Transports leaving a sea zone in combat movement to avoid participation in the attack may load first, but may only offload in an amphibious assault.
D) Another possible scenario I’ve overlooked?

Panther’s answers to the above:
A: No. Loading a transport during Combat Move Phase is only possible when it prepares an amphibious assault during that same turn.
B: No, They can load, but only for an amphibious assault during the same turn.
C : Almost. In case they load they must offload for an amphibious assault.
D : They can leave unloaded, too, and in that case can end their movement in a friendly sea zone.

So if I am understanding this correctly (feel free to correct me, or bring in a rules expert to help us) I am allowed to load, my TT’s, and move them for an amphib assault elsewhere. What do you think?

I will most certainly allow you to edit your anzac turn if this is the case.

GeneralDisarray

@Daaras This is a rule I was told that stands in the 20 years I have been playing because of the wording in the rules. And not because some player says otherwise. You cannot participate in an amphibious assault after creating and leaving a hostile sea zone. Now you can pick up and drop if you do not leave the sea zone. But because my boats are there and you declare war it becomes a hostile sea zone. Even you read the rule out in your message. Can’t tell how many time I’ve been stumped by this rule. If you wish to move your units differently not being at war beside with France then you are welcome to. I am welcome to hear gammerman’s opinion on this not some random players.

Daaras

@GeneralDisarray I’ll tag him and ask. I don’t really care what the rule is, I just want to get it correct.

@gamerman01 can you help up with this rules situation?

Daaras

gamerman01

Hi guys, thanks for bringing me in,

Panther is an official Q&A man, too, and his answers A, B, C, D all look correct to me.

My goal is to answer the rulebook questions you have, so I may not explain every angle unless you ask follow up questions.
I need to say I am not sure what GeneralDisarray meant, at times, like with the phrase “creating and leaving a hostile zone”, so I am not really responding to everything you each have said but I think my answers will take care of your needs.

I am using the Europe 2nd edition rulebook and I think Daaras posted 2nd edition Pacific which is fine, same rules, but my page number won’t coincide.

The end of page 13 and beginning of page 14 covers “sea units starting in enemy-occupied sea zones”.

The page 12 blue box explains how to apply this rule when you first declare war.

I’ll just try to clearly apply these rules to your situation here, and if you have additional questions I’d be happy to help.

I see GeneralDisarray moved an ANZ cruiser to New Hebrides and a destroyer to Paulau/Carolines. In each of these zones, Japan has ground units on islands and none on transports.

This creates issues for Japan.
Of course if Japan does not declare war J2, then the ANZ ships are neutral, not at war, and have no effect.

But of course the question is if Japan declares war against UK/ANZAC on J2, what are the effects of these ANZ ships.

The Page 12 rules apply since Japan is declaring war. “During your Combat Move phase in which you entered into a state of war, your transports that are already in sea zones that have just become hostile may be loaded in those sea zones (but not in other hostile sea zones). In effect, transports may be loaded in their initial sea zones for amphibious assaults before war is declared, while the sea zone is friendly.”

So, the rule page that Daaras posted.

Cruisers act as transports in PtV.

So in each of the sea zones ANZ intruded upon, you have the same situation for Japan if Japan declares war on UK/ANZ

(Bullet points on page 14) These are Japan’s choices:

Stay in the zone and conduct combat
Leave zone, load units if desired, conduct combat elsewhere
Leave zone, to load units or to establish a retreat route, return to zone and conduct combat
Leave zone and don’t conduct combat

Then you add in the rule for a new DOW,
Japan can load ground units in the zone, which is normally not allowed, but only for amphibious assaults.
The other 4 bullet points of page 14 still apply.

gamerman01

I should mention that “evil sneaky Karl move” is most likely the notorious loophole in the rules.
This does NOT apply in your situation here.

Because the political status of UK is married to ANZ, then there is the loophole that the UK could sail a surface warship into a Japanese fleet that is clearly looking to load up a huge army onto multiple transports and go take over lots of territory. Then ANZ does the unprovoked declaration of war on Japan, so when we get to poor Japan’s turn, she is not allowed to use the page 12 rule of loading transports for amphibious assault when you’ve just declared war on a power, because she can’t declare war on the UK. Thanks to ANZ, the UK/ANZ was already at war with Japan when we came to Japan’s turn, so Japan can’t declare war on UK/ANZ and the page 12 rule won’t apply.
It is unfortunate, but if both players understand this rule, it can be dealt with. #1 There are serious ramifications to an unprovoked DOW on Japan, especially early.
#2 Japan could leave some ground units on the tranports.

Again, I only mention this “loophole” in case it is contributing at all to the confusion.
There was no UK involvement like this and no ANZ DOW in your game

gamerman01

Lastly, because I think it may help and possibly be appreciated, I’ll state it in a negative way.

What harm did the cold, calculating veteran GeneralDisarray cause?

IF Japan declares war on UK/ANZ, then

Japan can’t noncombat move any of the ground units on Carolines or New Hebrides. To get the marine off New Hebrides this turn, Japan has to amphibiously assault some other enemy island
Japan can’t use transports to noncombat move OTHER ground units, for example, Japan can’t transport any ground from Japan to Korea, Manchuria, or any of the other friendly territories up there
Japan has to move all ships in the enemy zones to destination zones without seeing combat results (where destination could include the starting, hostile, zone)

But…
Japan can still fully load up all 3 transports with Carolines army and go take Allied territories.

Any remaining questions, please give me a chance to clear them up, have fun guys

Daaras

@gamerman01 Alright, thank you sir!

I’m going to let him make some edits, because his moves clearly show the intent of not letting my amphibious assault elsewhere. I don’t want to pillage Sydney because of a silly rule like this.

GeneralDisarray

@Daaras Its my fault for not knowing the rules I suppose. I have been stopped a few times like this and it’s frustrating. Not knowing this rule I would have done America differently as well. You can take this game as well for that as it would seemingly be too much to unwind. Gg glad I learned something. I’ll post it up soon.

Daaras

@GeneralDisarray I don’t mind if you want to edit back to USA1. I like to play the game, not have things like this ruin it. I’d also be fine if you wanted to post it and unwind from usa1. I’m not malicious, lets just have some fun.

gamerman01

@GeneralDisarray I hope you’ll reconsider giving up the game, and go back to US1

GeneralDisarray

@gamerman01 Both generous so I will continue. That said if you did not know the rules and asked to stay loaded up on your tt instead I am not sure I would have extended the courtesy nor has it ever been extended to me. Fight on appreciate the pass.

Daaras

@GeneralDisarray @gamerman01 This is something I wish the League would be better about. We don’t need to be so brutal and cutthroat.

I am very in favor, of what I would call “Obvious Edits”. Your moves clearly indicated that you were under the impression that I couldn’t move. If I’m going to win, I want it to be from better strategy/tactics. Not a misunderstood rule, or a simple oversight. i.e. missing a blocker or getting a capital killed when you can easily prevent it, etc

GeneralDisarray

@Daaras Appreciate the edits if Italy want to move anything around differently let me know. R2 Revised.tsvg

Daaras

TripleA Turn Summary: Japanese round 2

TripleA Turn Summary for game: WW2 Path to Victory

Game History

Round: 2

    Purchase Units - Japanese
        Japanese buy 1 artillery, 2 factory_minors and 2 submarines; Remaining resources: 0 PUs; 6 SuicideAttackTokens; 

    Combat Move - Japanese
        2 bombers, 1 fighter and 1 tactical_bomber moved from Kwangsi to Siam
        1 artillery and 1 infantry moved from Kwangsi to Hunan
              Japanese take Hunan from Chinese
        2 artilleries and 6 infantry moved from Kiangsi to Hunan
        2 artilleries and 3 infantry moved from Anhwe to Kiangsi
        1 artillery moved from Jehol to Southern Manchuria
        3 infantry moved from Jehol to Anhwe

    Combat - Japanese

    Non Combat Move - Japanese
        1 marine moved from New Hebrides to 54 Sea Zone
        1 carrier, 1 cruiser, 1 destroyer, 1 fighter, 1 marine and 1 tactical_bomber moved from 54 Sea Zone to 56 Sea Zone
        1 artillery and 5 infantry moved from Caroline Islands to 35 Sea Zone
        1 artillery, 5 infantry and 3 transports moved from 35 Sea Zone to 56 Sea Zone
        1 destroyer and 1 submarine moved from 35 Sea Zone to 56 Sea Zone
        2 carriers moved from 34 Sea Zone to 56 Sea Zone
        2 fighters and 2 tactical_bombers moved from Caroline Islands to 56 Sea Zone
        1 battleship, 1 cruiser, 2 destroyers and 1 submarine moved from 34 Sea Zone to 35 Sea Zone
        2 fighters and 2 tactical_bombers moved from Marshall Islands to Caroline Islands
        1 armour, 1 artillery and 5 infantry moved from Japan to 7 Sea Zone
        1 infantry moved from Hokkaido to 7 Sea Zone
        1 armour, 1 artillery, 6 infantry and 4 transports moved from 7 Sea Zone to 35 Sea Zone
        1 armour, 1 artillery and 6 infantry moved from 35 Sea Zone to Caroline Islands
        1 aaGun moved from Japan to Kyushu
        1 fighter and 1 tactical_bomber moved from Caroline Islands to Kiangsu

    Place Units - Japanese
        2 submarines placed in 6 Sea Zone
        1 artillery placed in Japan
        1 factory_minor placed in Southern Manchuria
        1 factory_minor placed in Kiangsu

    Turn Complete - Japanese
        Japanese collect 30 PUs; end with 30 PUs
        Objective Japanese 1 Trade With America: Japanese met a national objective for an additional 10 PUs; end with 40 PUs

Combat Hit Differential Summary :

Savegame

GeneralDisarray

@Daaras B2.tsvg

GeneralDisarray

Game History

Round: 2

    Purchase Units - Americans
        Americans buy 2 carriers, 1 destroyer, 1 infantry, 1 submarine and 1 transport; Remaining resources: 0 PUs; 

    Combat Move - Americans

    Non Combat Move - Americans
        1 fighter and 1 tactical_bomber moved from Line Islands to 104 Sea Zone
        1 bomber moved from Line Islands to Eastern United States
        3 fighters moved from Line Islands to Hawaiian Islands
        1 battleship, 1 carrier, 2 cruisers, 1 destroyer, 1 fighter, 1 submarine and 1 transport moved from 28 Sea Zone to 27 Sea Zone
        1 destroyer moved from 26 Sea Zone to 27 Sea Zone
        1 fighter moved from Wake Island to 27 Sea Zone
        1 carrier and 1 submarine moved from 11 Sea Zone to 27 Sea Zone
        1 artillery and 1 infantry moved from Western United States to 11 Sea Zone
        1 artillery, 1 infantry and 1 transport moved from 11 Sea Zone to 27 Sea Zone
        1 armour moved from Western United States to Central United States
        1 artillery moved from 27 Sea Zone to Hawaiian Islands
        1 infantry moved from 27 Sea Zone to Hawaiian Islands

    Place Units - Americans
        1 carrier placed in 104 Sea Zone
        1 carrier, 1 destroyer and 1 submarine placed in 11 Sea Zone
        1 transport placed in 104 Sea Zone
        1 infantry placed in Central United States
        Americans undo move 2.
        1 submarine placed in 104 Sea Zone
        1 carrier and 1 destroyer placed in 11 Sea Zone

    Turn Complete - Americans
        Americans collect 53 PUs; end with 53 PUs

    Purchase Units - Chinese
        Trigger Chinese Artillery Supplies: Chinese has their production frontier changed to: productionChinese_Burma_Road_Open
        Chinese buy 4 artilleries; Remaining resources: 1 PUs; 

    Combat Move - Chinese
        1 infantry moved from Yunnan to Kwangsi
              Chinese take Kwangsi from Japanese

    Combat - Chinese

    Non Combat Move - Chinese
        Turning on Edit Mode
        EDIT: Removing units owned by Americans from 42 Sea Zone: 1 destroyer and 1 submarine
        EDIT: Adding units owned by Americans to 81 Sea Zone: 1 destroyer and 1 submarine
        EDIT: Turning off Edit Mode
        9 infantry moved from Yunnan to Szechwan
        1 fighter and 6 infantry moved from Tsinghai to Szechwan

    Place Units - Chinese
        4 artilleries placed in Szechwan

    Turn Complete - Chinese
        Chinese collect 14 PUs; end with 15 PUs
        Objective Chinese 1 Burma Road: Chinese met a national objective for an additional 3 PUs; end with 18 PUs

    Purchase Units - British
        British buy 1 factory_minor, 1 infantry and 3 submarines; Remaining resources: 0 PUs; 

    Purchase Units - UK_Pacific
        UK_Pacific buy 2 artilleries and 3 infantry; Remaining resources: 0 PUs; 

    Combat Move - British
        1 armour moved from Egypt to Alexandria
              British take Alexandria from Italians
        1 armour moved from Alexandria to Egypt
        1 destroyer moved from 83 Sea Zone to 98 Sea Zone
        1 fighter and 1 tactical_bomber moved from 83 Sea Zone to 98 Sea Zone
        1 bomber and 3 fighters moved from United Kingdom to 115 Sea Zone
        1 infantry moved from Shan State to French Indo China
              UK_Pacific take French Indo China from Neutral_Axis
        1 infantry moved from Ethiopia to Kenya
        1 artillery moved from Ethiopia to Italian Somaliland
              British take Italian Somaliland from Italians
        1 fighter and 1 tactical_bomber moved from Egypt to Kenya

    Combat - British
        Battle in 98 Sea Zone
            British attack with 1 destroyer, 1 fighter and 1 tactical_bomber
            Italians defend with 1 submarine
                British roll dice for 1 destroyer, 1 fighter and 1 tactical_bomber in 98 Sea Zone, round 2 : 3/3 hits, 1.50 expected hits
                Italians roll dice for 1 submarine in 98 Sea Zone, round 2 : 0/1 hits, 0.17 expected hits
                1 submarine owned by the Italians lost in 98 Sea Zone
            British win with 1 destroyer, 1 fighter and 1 tactical_bomber remaining. Battle score for attacker is 6
            Casualties for Italians: 1 submarine
        Battle in 115 Sea Zone
            British attack with 1 bomber and 3 fighters
            Germans defend with 2 destroyers
                British roll dice for 1 bomber and 3 fighters in 115 Sea Zone, round 2 : 1/4 hits, 2.00 expected hits
                Germans roll dice for 2 destroyers in 115 Sea Zone, round 2 : 2/2 hits, 0.67 expected hits
                2 fighters owned by the British lost in 115 Sea Zone
                1 destroyer owned by the Germans lost in 115 Sea Zone
                British roll dice for 1 bomber and 1 fighter in 115 Sea Zone, round 3 : 1/2 hits, 1.00 expected hits
                Germans roll dice for 1 destroyer in 115 Sea Zone, round 3 : 0/1 hits, 0.33 expected hits
                1 destroyer owned by the Germans lost in 115 Sea Zone
            British win with 1 bomber and 1 fighter remaining. Battle score for attacker is -4
            Casualties for British: 2 fighters
            Casualties for Germans: 2 destroyers
        Battle in Kenya
            British attack with 1 fighter, 1 infantry and 1 tactical_bomber
            Italians defend with 1 infantry
                British roll dice for 1 fighter, 1 infantry and 1 tactical_bomber in Kenya, round 2 : 0/3 hits, 1.33 expected hits
                Italians roll dice for 1 infantry in Kenya, round 2 : 1/1 hits, 0.33 expected hits
                1 infantry owned by the British lost in Kenya
            1 tactical_bomber owned by the British and 1 fighter owned by the British retreated
            Italians win with 1 infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is -3
            Casualties for British: 1 infantry

    Non Combat Move - British
        1 fighter and 1 tactical_bomber moved from Kenya to Egypt
        1 transport moved from 78 Sea Zone to 73 Sea Zone
        2 infantry moved from Rhodesia to Belgian Congo
        2 cruisers and 1 destroyer moved from 78 Sea Zone to 83 Sea Zone
        1 fighter and 1 tactical_bomber moved from 98 Sea Zone to 83 Sea Zone
        1 battleship moved from 40 Sea Zone to 78 Sea Zone
        2 infantry moved from Shan State to Burma
        2 artilleries and 3 infantry moved from Eastern India to Burma
        1 infantry moved from Baluchistan to Southern Persia
              British take Southern Persia from Neutral_Allies
        1 fighter moved from 115 Sea Zone to United Kingdom
        1 bomber moved from 115 Sea Zone to United Kingdom

    Place Units - British
        1 infantry placed in Union of South Africa
        1 factory_minor placed in Egypt
        3 submarines placed in 112 Sea Zone

    Turn Complete - British
        Total Cost from Convoy Blockades: 0
            Rolling for Convoy Blockade Damage in 112 Sea Zone. Rolls: 4,4
        British collect 30 PUs; end with 30 PUs
        Objective British 4 Control Convoy Lanes: British met a national objective for an additional 3 PUs; end with 33 PUs

    Place Units - UK_Pacific
        2 artilleries and 3 infantry placed in Eastern India

    Turn Complete - UK_Pacific
        UK_Pacific collect 19 PUs; end with 19 PUs
        Some Units in Eastern India change ownership: 2 artilleries and 3 infantry

Combat Hit Differential Summary :

Italians regular : 0.50
Germans regular : 1.00
British regular : -0.83

PTV Daaras (x+12) vs General Disarray

TripleA Turn Summary: Japanese round 2

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