Let's talk the Taranto raid.

The point of bringing the carrier is to discourage the axis player from scrambling. With a 90% plus chance of winning most players are not going to scramble and lose their three fighters therefore you can kill the Italian fleet for most likely only one plane. The only downside to this strategy is the counter attack from German air. On average the Germans should lose 2.5 planes on the counter attack. Three losses is very good for the allies, and two is still OK.

I used to be a big proponent of the Taranto raid, but I am leaning against it recently as I’ve had two games where the German didn’t lose any planes on the counter attack, which was a disaster for the allies. Probably better to do Gibastion as you don’t have to worry that the dice will screw you.

@SuperbattleshipYamato Worth remembering that with the right bid you can change the odds further (and perhaps also avoid bringing the carrier in). And as Andrew notes, the surviving units should take out some German air. And the Italians not only lose most of their fleet, but get convoyed in round 1. That being said, in my allied play I tend to prefer Gibastion.

@SuperbattleshipYamato hey,
I´ve been trying to find other ways of saving egypt but it always comes down to a show off (a taranto 2.0). I´m making a video of a possible alternative but the problem is the axis (italy) will have options with their fleet so it´s difficult to foresee solutions for all these options .

@SuperbattleshipYamato correct. But it costs a lot in blockers so in my new plan i have a solution for this.

You bring the carrier the axis has 2 options.

Scramble, sure you take 1 carrier and 2 fighters as losses.
They still lose the fleet and 3 extra fighters.

Dont scramble and basicaly give up the fleet for minimal losses on the allied side.

Take your pick really, it hardly mathers to the allies Italy is crippled, its 1 less front to bother with and basically you turn the game into a race to moscow for the axis. They either win the race and the game or have a few 2 many bad rolls and they lose the game.

I get ecstatic when my opponent doesn’t do Taranato.
No idea what my win rate is when there is no Taranato, but I am sure it is higher than when I do get Taranto’d.

@Galendae said in Let's talk the Taranto raid.:

I get ecstatic when my opponent doesn’t do Taranato.
No idea what my win rate is when there is no Taranato, but I am sure it is higher than when I do get Taranto’d.

Well i guess it doesnt happen that often because taranto is just really good and easy opener. Not doing it is a lot more tricky to do as allies.

If for some reason that BB in 110 survives and your cruiser in the atlantic survives its a good tactic though. Combining everything + airbase in the med removes any ideas italy might have for any NO they might want to think about.
And any ideas of a sea-lion for germany are also scrapped.

@shadowhawk it does take either good dice rolls, an Allied bid, and/or meticulous execution to pull of the alternatives to Taranto. Otherwise you find that you lose Egypt, Gibraltar, or London early in the game and it is almost impossible to recover.

I have to spend a long time battlecalcing every scenario if I decide to place my fleet next to Gibraltar. That certainly is the best option if you can avoid mistakes, but I wouldn’t do that in a face to face game.

@Arthur-Bomber-Harris said in Let's talk the Taranto raid.:

@shadowhawk it does take either good dice rolls, an Allied bid, and/or meticulous execution to pull of the alternatives to Taranto. Otherwise you find that you lose Egypt, Gibraltar, or London early in the game and it is almost impossible to recover.

I have to spend a long time battlecalcing every scenario if I decide to place my fleet next to Gibraltar. That certainly is the best option if you can avoid mistakes, but I wouldn’t do that in a face to face game.

Yea i agree there, taranto is the easier option to pull off.
But in the case or rare dice in 110, or just a weak attack there, sometimes you can pull it off.
Having a BB + 2 cruisers + destroyer + carrier + 3 fighters available will deter any attack on it from italy or germany and that fleet can easy defend sea lion or punish the italians for moving anywhere but stay put.

But just doing taranto is the easier and safer bet.

@Arthur-Bomber-Harris

To keep the discussion alive, i´ve been making some strategy videos.

Here´s one for the UK:

https://youtu.be/Z4vqnXhq4pU?si=YvdnR9tssBjlS1kE

Hi Corwallis,

I see two responses from Italy after that UK opener. Note that I haven’t fully optimized the moves but more highlighted the key concepts of the Italian turn.

1. take Gibraltar and reinforce it with German planes as necessary to prevent Allied recapture until turn 4 or 5. This gives Germany plenty of time to attack into Russia without too much concern that the Allies will attack Western Europe until quite late in the match. It also give Japan time to expand as the United States needs to build a fleet big enough not only to withstand the German airforce, but also take a heavily defended Gibraltar. UK also has to deal with a strong Italian navy that will require an expensive attack, and likely expensive counter-attack.

2. pressure Egypt on the Italian turn (reinforcing Alexandria with German planes). If UK dice are unlucky during the first couple of turns, Egpyt will fall and the game is essentially over for the Allies. With good game play, the Allies will survive but it will delay their ability to reinforce Moscow or prevent the Germans from driving their tanks down into the Middle East.

I also see a huge weakness with your plan is the requirement to divert Indian planes into Africa. With the loss of those aircraft, India will likely fall on J4 or J5 against a competent Axis opponent. I don’t think that your opener is nearly as good as either Taranto or moving the fleet to Gibraltar.

@Arthur-Bomber-Harris
Bad dice for UK on the Taranto raid also means game over for UK so to prevent that from happening i came up with this idea.
A succesful taranto is the best solution there is no discussion about that but without bid and with OOB rules you have and 80% chance of pulling it of so 1 game in 5 you´re screwed.

Italy going for gibraltar on I1 is something they can do even after doing taranto and yes it sucks but a US commitment to that i think they can retake sooner than turn 4. Check my Sahara express for my US idea on that.

Italy going for egypt is possible but when they put their fleet next go egypt on I1 (like in your 2nd picture) the UK can smash it with air (6 air units) on UK2 so they won´t do that. On UK2 you rejoin the med with a reinforced UK fleet and you built a factory and airbase there and with the troops from Iran as reinforcement italy can´t take egypt on I2 or I3. On UK3 you can attack the italian fleet wherever they are in the med.

Every game i´ve tried this now italy always overstretches on I1. Yes pulling fighters away from India is not ideal you are right but my priority is to hold egypt and a strong RAF which can then return to egypt or even moscow.

That SZ 98 sea/air battle is dicey for the British. Here is the results for 20 simulated attacks of the 6 UK planes against that fleet. Assuming the Italians build a fighter or transport on I1 to support an I2 attack, the British will need at least 4 remaining planes to be able to adequately defend Egypt with high probability. There is about a 30% chance of that happening which ain’t good odds.

If the Italians get diced, it isn’t a big deal for them as they often aren’t a big factor in most games anyway.

I will take my 80% odds in Taranto as victory usually means loss of a significant number of Axis planes that are crucial to typical strategies.

@Arthur-Bomber-Harris italy can attack with 10 land and 3 air units so UK needs 2 fighters. Plus the french fleet can still Block or even attack the transport that you´ve built.
Italy losing that fleet especially those transports does Hurt them.

But to really play save as UK you could also not do the Ethiopia attack but in stead land the Inf and art from India in italia somaliland thus giving you 2 extra units on egypt. Attacking with the same amount of units but with a lot of inf on 1 against units defending on 2 or more is more of hale marie than a good plan.

And with taranto, italy can do the same, they can still go for egypt with the same odds.

@Cornwallis I agree with the game plan to avoid the Ethiopia attack on UK1. If the dice go wrong, Egypt can easily fall on I2.

Getting diced in Africa to Italy is a horrible way for the Allies to lose in the opening turns as the Italians generally only have the role to provide a canopener in Russia and make sure they don’t lose their capitol.

@Arthur-Bomber-Harris i also agree with you that taranto is the best and easiest way to Block italy but even then they can threaten egypt especially if germany supports them.
It´s good we can discuss the use of my idea which is by far not waterproof i know.

This is another idea for the US when germany buys their fleet on G1 to prevent the Allies from getting to gibraltar.

https://youtu.be/ZQDC0iGa7UY?si=STM9lYeUpdszBurc