Evolution Poll

@ncscswitch:

When combined with things such as Jen’s statement about government established Christian Schools, or with statements from folks like Katherine Harris last week… then YES, it IS being attempted to be “forced down our throats.”

And the typical response from the Christian Right when anyone voices objection is “if you don;t like it, go to another country.”

That my friend IS forcing it upon those of us who are not fundamentalist Christians.

well,
given that none of this seems to pertain to the discussion at hand, then it seems to be just irrelevant whining.  Like - in the same vein, i could whine about your pagan beliefs being forced down my throat.  They aren’t, but i really don’t see a difference.

@cystic:

regardless of how you feel personally about something - i.e. that you feel alienated by it - is sadly your problem.  If you do not feel that attempts have been made to prevent you from an eternity without God, then that is the problem of Christians around you, but if you simply don’t like the theology and feel that Christians are trying to edge you out of life because of it, then that’s too bad.  Afterall - this is a 2000 year-old message - it wasn’t generated for Jermofoot, but to give people a choice as to how they wanted to spend their life and the afterlife.

I see what you are saying - but do you think Jesus’ intent was for people to separate themselves as group from others not included?  I doubt it.  I’m fine with keeping my options open; perhaps I’ll have my own revelation and decide that God exists and is wonderful, but currently I’m disinterested.  I’m still a capable human being, and as long as I’m not impeding you from doing what you want, then we’re hunky-dorey.

no it isn’t.  you have had nothing forced on you.  People have cared enough to tell you that this is the way through the afterlife, either take it or don’t.  As far as i can see it, revealing information to you about the end of your time would be more freeing, allowing you more options, than “forcing something down your throat”.  You don’t like the message - fine, but don’t shoot the messenger.

In my experience - and maybe I should have not used the word “forced” - my reputation & peace of mind are in jeopardy simply because I don’t belong to a specific group.  And the more I think about it, Christianity seems more and more like any other social group: you have the “ins” and “outs,” and conciously or not, the ins push the outs away, unless they assimilate.  However, I’m not saying this is indicative of all Christians or Christianity itself, just the byproduct of humans and social organization.  Also, I’m not trying to come off as railing religion - it’s not my cup of tea, and I want people to practice what they wish.  Just recognize that not everyone is doing the same as you.

@ncscswitch:

That my friend IS forcing it upon those of us who are not fundamentalist Christians.

Not to mention counter to what/why this country was founded in the first place.

you keep missing the point its there choice to choose or not,

nobody and I mean nobody is forcing anybody to choose to believe.

It’s wrong to do that.

My point is to here are the facts: do you believe or not

I’m only arguing because I will not sit idly while people are making fun of God and saying mean things about Christians.

@ncscswitch:

CC,

I tend not to deal with this issue in purely theoretical terms.  When I see discussions like this, when I see the blind faith, the proselytizing, the attempts to intertwine religion and government…  I see those on a real world level.

you have to “forgive” the blind faith and what you refer to as proselytizing.  For many Christians, Christianity is well beyond blind faith, but is as real as the love you feel for your partner (assuming you love your partner, of course).  As for the proselytizing you will have to forgive that to a certain extent.  Afterall - it is in The Book.  Now i will grant you - there is a difference between informing people of important Truths, and being a dick about it.  You may have a different view as to where this line is drawn, but i think as one has to live with certain things in a society, you are going to have to find a ground in which you can tolerate these injustices of life, or you are going to be railling against human behaviour in all of its forms until you die, probably of a broken hip when you fall in your clonazepam-induced-fog required by the inevitable anxiety you are developing by these mercilous Christians’.

I see the Christian Coalition and othes of their ilk trying to get not prayer, but explicitly and exclisvuely Christian Prayer in schools.

there is going to be a pushing and pulling.  A union will request bizaare things of an employer just to find a compromise that they were actually seeking.  I read too much about Christian children being prohibited from praying in cafeterias in public schools.  As long as this is a problem, i can understand the pendulum being swung by a further margin.

I see the entire ID/Creationism issue as a way of getting the Book of Geneis being taught as FACT in schools.

cool.
I went to Christian schools for most of my life, and this wasn’t being taught this way.  Still, i think that it is reasonable to teach this as a common philosophy, if not as a scientific fact (presumably you have seen my few posts on the evolution/creation debate).

I see a real world push to put conservative fundamentalist Christians in public office in order to legislate THEIR views, and use the enforcement power of the Imperial Federal Government to mandate compliance under threat of fine or imprisonment.

it depends on what those views are.  Whether Christian or not, i have a problem with those who seek to hand more power to gun-wielders, abortionists, executors, war-mongers, etc.  At the same time, the society of Jesus as per the Sermon on the Mount and the Acts’ church was pretty cool, and i wouldn’t have a problem with this philosophy in a government.

Just look at some of the “theoreticals” that have been posted here, and what many of these so-called Christians want to do to their fellow Americans simply because they do not follow their particular religious outlook.  Just this morning I had to delete a post that violated this forum’s policies that advocated death for a variety of non-Christian groups.

Now you have seen my unabashed defence of people who need defending - the unborn, Muslims, death row prisoners (i.e. w.r.t. the death penalty), so you know that i’m pretty anti-killing.  Still, just because someone claims to both be a Christian and death to homosexuals - how different is that from me proclaiming to be a switch-follower and oh-yeah - death to all law-enforcement types?  Both are equally ridiculous stances - try and separate the two.

Do we REALLY want to allow that type of behavior and outlook on life to be placed in control of our government?  To give those people the means to actually carry out their plans for “purification” of America as a Christian nation?
I certainly do not…

again - baby and bathwater.  You generalize too easily here.

I find it funny that people are afraid of allowing children to say a prayer in school if they want to. Who cares who they pray to, or if they’re picking their nose during that moment instead of praying? It’s like bitching about what someone is saying on the radio (H.Stern) or the TV…if YOU don’t like it, just change the station (or channel). If you’re in school and have no particular interest in saying a prayer, then don’t. Read a book or trade googly-eyes with Mary Joe Rottencrotch instead. You non-believers are so hypocritica; you fight just as fervently for what YOU think is right as believers do for what they think is right….and yet, while it’s okay for YOU to do so, it isn’t okay (in your eyes) for believers to do the same.

They say:

“I don’t want to pray in school”.  Okay, so don’t.

“I don’t want my kids to see other kids praying in school”  Why? Afraid they might form opinions of their own?

And you say:

“I find it funny when a pagan like me knows more about Christianity than half the Christians” (paraphrasing)

And yet, I see know evidence of this as yet….just opinions. But whatever…it’s called free-will for a reason. You’re free to believe or not believe as suits you. This is also true for Christians, and yet it really seems to bother you that we feel as free to speak out on our beliefs as you non-believers do on yours. In many states, it is apparently quite legal to include religion in the curriculum, and why not? Evolution is just like religion; alot of it takes faith and great imaginative leaps to fill in the blanks and believe. You non=believers have been ramming Evolution down our throats since 1963 or so, having it all your own way. Sounds like indoctrination to me…which is exactly what you non believers are so afraid of and outspoken against when it’s religion, not evolution, under the microscope. Why should it be perfectly fine for your agenda to be allowed, but not ours? You non-believers are doing the very same thing you’re so happy to accuse Christians of: you’re beating your chests and saying “We’re right, you’re wrong”. How is what you do different from what you accuse us of doing?

Rob.

Here is what is comes down to between the two schools of thought.

1. In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth…

And:

2. In the beginning, an impossibly small and impossibly dense lump of something extremely vague in nature was just sitting around in a perfect vaccuum, minding it’s own business for who knows how long (never mind where it came from), when, for some unknown reason, it suddenly exploded, and from that…dirt. ……(insert unknown and unprovable length of time here)…and from that dirt, life…over millions of unproveable years, to what we are today.

Uh-huh. And you expect us to accept that as fact?

Again, pretty hypocritical of you, considering that your theory (and that’s all it is) is just as goofy and imaginative as ours is.

If you were to take a lump of every element, atom, molecule, and particle (IOW, everything in existance, which you cannot do) and place it inside of a vessel which contained a perfect vaccuum, and left it to sit, undisturbed by any outside influence for whatever length of time you choose, I guarantee that at the end of that period it would still be just as you left it. To claim otherwise defies all known logic, and as it cannot be proven otherwise, that same claim is also unscientific as you would define it. It cannot be proven. Period. Therefore, it takes faith to believe that it happened at all. This, my friend, is called a belief, not a fact. You need faith to believe you rversion of events just as we do.

We’re not so different after all.

Rob.

@ncscswitch:

I fully support the rights of all people to freedom of religious expression.

And yet, you claim exceptions. Therefore, you cannot fully support those rights of other people. “Fully” in this case would, by definition, exclude the possibilty of exceptions.

Lastly… yes, it DOES bother me that folks are compelled to witness their faith to me.

Then you, my friend, need some thicker skin. Or maybe some earplugs and a sign around your neck saying ‘go away, I don’t want to hear it.’ which is hypocritical in it’s own right because you fully expect everyone else to be quite alright with having your system of belief drilled into their children’s heads as if it were fact. In that sense, your pagan philosophy is being witnessed to our children every day, and to you that’s okay, as long as you have it your way.

Or maybe you need to walk away from this thread because it must really be bothering you something fierce. I note that no one’s forcing you to read it.  :wink:

I belong to one of the many religions that does not proselytize.

That would be incorrect. Evolution is a pagan theory. Every time you rise up in defense of your evolution theory, you are proselytising. You are telling me that this is your belief system, and that it is right……every time you claim that your theory is fact and that ours is not, you are proselytising.

And I don;t think Jesus went around constantly telling every soul he met about God.  He just led by example, and taught to those who ASKED to be taught.  A good example that perhaps his followers should emulate.

Once again, you have no proof of this……it is merely what you believe, and there is nothing wrong with that. But do not claim it as fact, for that way leads to ruin. I personally believe that anyone who wishes to explain their belief system to another person should start out with “I believe”, rather than trying to throw the words “proof” and “fact” around.

And infact Jesus did go about telling everyone he saw about God, because he was doing his Father’s work, and if you read the Gospels you would find he is either preaching to thousands at a time, or teaching his disciples, or performing miracles in Gods name.

No wait a doggon minute, Switch.  I never said anything about government sanctioned christian schools.  What I said is that the government has sanctioned the slaughter of the christian faith from schools.  IF teachers want to pray, let them.  IF the local PTA wants a nativity scene at christmas, let them.  It’s freedom of speech and freedom of religion.

@ncscswitch:

When combined with things such as Jen’s statement about government established Christian Schools, or with statements from folks like Katherine Harris last week… then YES, it IS being attempted to be “forced down our throats.”

And the typical response from the Christian Right when anyone voices objection is “if you don;t like it, go to another country.”

That my friend IS forcing it upon those of us who are not fundamentalist Christians.

@Jermofoot:

@NoMercy:

I am not forcing this upon anyone. I am stating that men choose to sin on there own free will and because of sin you cannot enter into heaven unless you are saved.

people who are good there whole lives wont get there for being good. Life if you have realized isn’t fair, so if they knew the truth that they had to be saved and arn’t then its there own fault.

Insisting that there is a heaven (going on nothing more than hope), and then saying “that’s the way it is,” is indeed forcing it down others’ throats.

A)  Mercy’s right.  Christians are instructed to inform non-believers of the law, but not to force them to comply with it.  If you choose to ignore the law, when the day of Judgement comes, you will not have a valid arguement that you did not know the law.  We informed you that if you did not seek redemption through Jesus then the law says you will be sent into hell/exile from God.  We do not enforce the law, we just let you know of it because we don’t want you to be in hell, we’d be much happier having you with us in bliss.

B)  No, it isn’t forcing it down your throat.  I have no qualms telling a bunch of people at a rally that killing babies is murder and that doing that, without seeking redemption in their hearts for doing wrong doing, may get them sent to hell.  But after I’ve spoken my mind, if I’m just told to go away, I’ll stop preaching.    IF you want to argue against it, then you are inviting me to continue trying to persuade you to my vantage point on the issue.  (It’s the same for the other tenaments, I see a Muslim or a Buddist I’ll tell them I think they’re in the wrong religion because of A, B and C.  IF they say that’s nice and change the subject, I let it drop too.)

C)  Yes, if Adolf Hitler, in his heart, and asked for redemption before the end and had not committed suicide (which is, I believe, the only sin you cannot ask for forgiveness from since you are dead after you committ it, and you have to be alive to ask for redemption) then yes, I think his sins, as horrendous as they were, would be forgiven.  After all, Saul, who also persecuted the Jews resulting in the torture and death of many was given redemption and became an evangelist himself (renamed Paul.)  If even he could be forgiven of his sins, then anyone can.  You only need to honestly repent, not just give it lip service.

@MADDOGG:

Hitler did indeed repent, 1 minute before he died. That’s a recorded fact. Now he is enjoying eternal bliss in heaven with GOD!

He committed suicide, he thus murdered himself and, since he is dead as of that act, he cannot repent of that sin.

So, no, I don’t believe he’ll go to heaven.  I could be wrong.  As I said, God makes that decision, not me!  (And you better be happy cause no one but my close personal friends and family would get to go because I hate humans.)

@ncscswitch:

Jen you specifically stated government established, but not operated, Christian schools.

If if they are setting them up, then they are indeed sanctioning them.

And teacher CAN pray, they just can’t lead their class in it.  PRIVATELY they can do as they please.

I don’t remember saying that we should build government established religious schools.  That doesn’t even sound like me.    I know the government is setting up and mandating schools that are anti-christian in nature.  And I’d like to see the war on christianity stop.  But it won’t.  It’s a wicked nation run by the wicked for the wicked.  It’s only a matter of time before we are over thrown by a foreign government or by our own people and religion picks up again.  It’s a cycle that happens to all major nations of the world.

And no.  A teacher caught praying on public school grounds is subject to immediate dismissal.  Any member of the NEA can tell you that, it’s in the NEA (National Educaters Association - AKA the Teacher’s Union) hand book.  I get a copy next week, I can give you page number and line by line verbatim if you want.  Government Employees (including teachers) cannot espouse a religious faith at their place of business when dealing with minors.  They are only allowed to tow the government line which is Man is God, we are the supreme beings in the universe and there is nothing better then us.

@ncscswitch:

@Jennifer:

Government Employees (including teachers) cannot espouse a religious faith at their place of business when dealing with minors.

Stop ignoring those important clauses when you debate Jen.  That statement WITH the “dealing with minors” clause is there explicitly because of teh Equal Access Act, and the provisions thereof (signed by Ronald Reagan no less…)

Your actual statement on schools was somethign about the government building/establishing christian schools, but you also said that the government would not run them.  It was a couple of days ago, but I remember the post.

I’m gunna need a quote.  I don’t believe I’ve ever said the government should build religious schools.  I think they are building religious schools with the religion being science, but that’s not the same as them building catholic schools.  I know I said that schools that are defunct are usually sold to churches because they’re normally on teh worst land available and thus no one will actually pay market value for them.

Perhaps someone else said the government is/should be building religious schools.

Maddog/Switch:

From what I understand, 1 sin committed with full knowledge and with intent to committ sin will prevent you from entering the gates of heaven.  I do not believe you can give lip service when it comes to confession and asking of absolution of your sins.  So yes.  If you took cyanide with the distinct plan to repent between the taking of the pill and death, then no, i don’t think it would count and you would still be committed of murdering yourself.

I don’t view this as any whackier then the American justice system where you can tell a priest you’re going to murder a little girl and then expect the priest not to turn you into the authorities - of when a cop give you a ticket, you fight it and win, but still have to pay the full fine to the courts.