L23 2nd Ed OOB AndrewAAGamer (X) vs farmboy (Allies+60)

TripleA Turn Summary: Russians round 15

TripleA Turn Summary for game: World War II Global 1940 2nd Edition

Game History

Round: 15

    Purchase Units - Russians
        Russians buy 1 artillery and 10 infantry; Remaining resources: 0 PUs; 

    Combat Move - Russians
        1 infantry moved from Northwest Persia to Iraq
              Russians take Iraq from Germans
        1 fighter moved from Russia to Ukraine
        1 infantry moved from Rostov to Ukraine
        1 infantry moved from Bryansk to Ukraine
        1 fighter moved from Rostov to Ukraine
        1 armour moved from Novgorod to Bryansk
              Russians take Belarus from Germans
        1 fighter and 1 tactical_bomber moved from Novgorod to Karelia
        2 infantry moved from Novgorod to Karelia
        1 infantry moved from Novosibirsk to Timguska
              Russians take Timguska from Japanese
        3 infantry moved from Urals to Timguska

    Combat - Russians
        Battle in Karelia
            Russians attack with 1 fighter, 2 infantry and 1 tactical_bomber
            Germans defend with 1 infantry
                Russians roll dice for 1 fighter, 2 infantry and 1 tactical_bomber in Karelia, round 2 : 3/4 hits, 1.50 expected hits
                Germans roll dice for 1 infantry in Karelia, round 2 : 1/1 hits, 0.33 expected hits
                1 infantry owned by the Russians lost in Karelia
                1 infantry owned by the Germans lost in Karelia
            Russians win, taking Karelia from Germans with 1 fighter, 1 infantry and 1 tactical_bomber remaining. Battle score for attacker is 0
            Casualties for Russians: 1 infantry
            Casualties for Germans: 1 infantry
        Battle in Ukraine
            Russians attack with 2 fighters and 2 infantry
            Germans defend with 1 factory_minor and 1 mech_infantry
                Russians roll dice for 2 fighters and 2 infantry in Ukraine, round 2 : 2/4 hits, 1.33 expected hits
                Germans roll dice for 1 mech_infantry in Ukraine, round 2 : 1/1 hits, 0.33 expected hits
                1 infantry owned by the Russians lost in Ukraine
                1 mech_infantry owned by the Germans lost in Ukraine
            Russians win, taking Ukraine from Germans with 2 fighters and 1 infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 1
            Casualties for Russians: 1 infantry
            Casualties for Germans: 1 mech_infantry

    Non Combat Move - Russians
        2 fighters moved from Ukraine to Bryansk
        2 artilleries moved from Rostov to Bryansk
        7 infantry moved from Russia to Bryansk
        1 fighter and 1 tactical_bomber moved from Karelia to Bryansk
        1 mech_infantry moved from Novgorod to Bryansk

    Place Units - Russians
        1 artillery and 9 infantry placed in Russia
        1 infantry placed in Novgorod
        Turning on Edit Mode
        EDIT: Removing units owned by Russians from Korea: 1 infantry
        EDIT: Adding units owned by Russians to Manchuria: 1 infantry
        EDIT: Turning off Edit Mode

    Turn Complete - Russians
        Total Cost from Convoy Blockades: 3
            Rolling for Convoy Blockade Damage in 6 Sea Zone. Rolls: 5,5,1,4,2,2,5,1,1
        Russians collect 29 PUs (3 lost to blockades); end with 29 PUs
        Trigger Russians 1 Lend Lease: Russians met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 34 PUs
        Objective Russians 2 Spread Of Communism: Russians met a national objective for an additional 6 PUs; end with 40 PUs

Combat Hit Differential Summary :

Germans regular : 1.33
Russians regular : 2.17

Savegame

TripleA Turn Summary: UK_Pacific round 15

TripleA Turn Summary for game: World War II Global 1940 2nd Edition

Game History

Round: 15

    Purchase Units - Americans
        Americans buy 1 artillery, 2 carriers, 3 fighters, 4 infantry and 1 submarine; Remaining resources: 0 PUs; 

    Combat Move - Americans
        2 infantry moved from Gibraltar to 92 Sea Zone
        3 infantry moved from Normandy Bordeaux to Holland Belgium
        6 infantry moved from Gibraltar to 92 Sea Zone
        6 infantry and 3 transports moved from 92 Sea Zone to 110 Sea Zone
        6 infantry moved from 110 Sea Zone to Holland Belgium
        4 fighters moved from Southern France to Holland Belgium
        1 fighter moved from Normandy Bordeaux to Holland Belgium
        1 armour and 1 mech_infantry moved from Southern France to Holland Belgium
        2 infantry and 1 transport moved from 92 Sea Zone to 110 Sea Zone
        2 infantry moved from 110 Sea Zone to Holland Belgium

    Combat - Americans
        Battle in Holland Belgium
            Americans attack with 1 armour, 5 fighters, 11 infantry and 1 mech_infantry
            Italians defend with 1 infantry
                Americans roll dice for 1 armour, 5 fighters, 11 infantry and 1 mech_infantry in Holland Belgium, round 2 : 2/18 hits, 5.00 expected hits
                Germans roll dice for 1 infantry in Holland Belgium, round 2 : 0/1 hits, 0.33 expected hits
                1 infantry owned by the Italians lost in Holland Belgium
            Americans win, taking Holland Belgium from Germans with 1 armour, 5 fighters, 11 infantry and 1 mech_infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 3
            Casualties for Italians: 1 infantry

    Non Combat Move - Americans
        1 fighter moved from Eastern United States to 110 Sea Zone
        1 fighter moved from Gibraltar to Normandy Bordeaux
        1 fighter moved from Holland Belgium to Normandy Bordeaux
        1 fighter moved from Holland Belgium to 110 Sea Zone
        3 fighters moved from Holland Belgium to United Kingdom
        5 artilleries and 5 infantry moved from Southern France to Normandy Bordeaux
        2 transports moved from 91 Sea Zone to 110 Sea Zone
        1 destroyer moved from 92 Sea Zone to 110 Sea Zone
        1 submarine moved from 92 Sea Zone to 97 Sea Zone
        5 fighters moved from Northwest Persia to Bryansk
        1 bomber moved from Northwest Persia to Novgorod
        1 artillery and 3 infantry moved from Queensland to 54 Sea Zone
        1 artillery, 1 battleship, 10 carriers, 3 cruisers, 2 destroyers, 17 fighters, 3 infantry, 13 submarines, 1 tactical_bomber and 2 transports moved from 54 Sea Zone to 33 Sea Zone
        1 artillery and 3 infantry moved from 33 Sea Zone to Caroline Islands
        3 submarines moved from 26 Sea Zone to 33 Sea Zone
        1 destroyer moved from 26 Sea Zone to 33 Sea Zone
        2 fighters moved from Hawaiian Islands to 33 Sea Zone
        1 carrier and 1 fighter moved from 30 Sea Zone to 33 Sea Zone
        2 infantry moved from Western United States to 10 Sea Zone
        1 carrier, 1 destroyer, 2 infantry and 1 transport moved from 10 Sea Zone to 26 Sea Zone
        2 infantry moved from 26 Sea Zone to Hawaiian Islands
        1 fighter moved from Western United States to Wake Island
        1 fighter moved from Western United States to Wake Island
        1 artillery and 1 infantry moved from Manchuria to Korea

    Place Units - Americans
        1 carrier placed in 110 Sea Zone
        1 artillery and 1 infantry placed in Normandy Bordeaux
        3 infantry placed in Southern France
        1 fighter placed in Eastern United States
        1 carrier and 1 submarine placed in 10 Sea Zone
        2 fighters placed in Western United States

    Turn Complete - Americans
        Americans collect 60 PUs; end with 60 PUs
        Objective Americans 1 Homeland: Americans met a national objective for an additional 10 PUs; end with 70 PUs
        Objective Americans 3 Defense Obligations: Americans met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 75 PUs
        Objective Americans 2 Outer Territories: Americans met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 80 PUs

    Purchase Units - Chinese
        Trigger Chinese Artillery Supplies: Chinese has their production frontier changed to: productionChinese_Burma_Road_Open
        Chinese buy 10 infantry; Remaining resources: 0 PUs; 

    Combat Move - Chinese

    Non Combat Move - Chinese
        3 artilleries and 24 infantry moved from Manchuria to Jehol
        7 artilleries, 1 fighter and 47 infantry moved from Yunnan to Burma
        1 infantry moved from Kweichow to Yunnan

    Place Units - Chinese
        10 infantry placed in Yunnan

    Turn Complete - Chinese
        Chinese collect 23 PUs; end with 23 PUs
        Objective Chinese 1 Burma Road: Chinese met a national objective for an additional 6 PUs; end with 29 PUs

    Purchase Units - British
        British repair damage of 4x factory_minor; Remaining resources: 28 PUs; 
        British buy 1 artillery and 8 infantry; Remaining resources: 0 PUs; 

    Purchase Units - UK_Pacific
        UK_Pacific buy 2 armour and 1 fighter; Remaining resources: 0 PUs; 

    Combat Move - British
        1 mech_infantry moved from Rhodesia to Anglo Egyptian Sudan
              British take Anglo Egyptian Sudan from Germans
        1 artillery moved from Yunnan to French Indo China
        9 infantry moved from Yunnan to French Indo China
        1 infantry moved from Yunnan to French Indo China

    Combat - British
        Battle in French Indo China
            British attack with 1 artillery and 10 infantry
            Japanese defend with 1 airfield, 1 factory_minor, 1 fighter, 1 harbour and 3 infantry
                British roll dice for 1 artillery and 10 infantry in French Indo China, round 2 : 4/11 hits, 2.17 expected hits
                Japanese roll dice for 1 fighter and 3 infantry in French Indo China, round 2 : 2/4 hits, 1.67 expected hits
                2 infantry owned by the British lost in French Indo China
                3 infantry owned by the Japanese and 1 fighter owned by the Japanese lost in French Indo China
            British win, taking French Indo China from Japanese with 1 artillery and 8 infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 13
            Casualties for British: 2 infantry
            Casualties for Japanese: 1 fighter and 3 infantry

    Non Combat Move - British
        1 aaGun moved from Yunnan to French Indo China
        9 infantry moved from Yunnan to Burma
        3 infantry moved from India to Burma
        1 aaGun, 7 artilleries, 5 infantry and 6 mech_infantrys moved from Alexandria to Tobruk
        3 infantry moved from Algeria to Tunisia
        2 infantry and 1 mech_infantry moved from Algeria to 92 Sea Zone
        1 carrier, 1 destroyer, 2 infantry, 1 mech_infantry and 3 transports moved from 92 Sea Zone to 110 Sea Zone
        3 infantry moved from United Kingdom to 110 Sea Zone
        5 infantry and 1 mech_infantry moved from 110 Sea Zone to Holland Belgium
        2 aaGuns and 9 infantry moved from Normandy Bordeaux to Holland Belgium
        2 artilleries and 1 infantry moved from Southern France to Normandy Bordeaux
        1 fighter moved from United Kingdom to 110 Sea Zone
        1 fighter moved from Gibraltar to 110 Sea Zone
        1 fighter moved from Gibraltar to Southern France
        1 aaGun and 3 infantry moved from West India to India
        2 artilleries moved from Eastern Persia to West India
        1 mech_infantry moved from Persia to Eastern Persia
        1 mech_infantry moved from Northwest Persia to Eastern Persia
        1 fighter and 1 tactical_bomber moved from Northwest Persia to West India
        9 infantry moved from Eastern Persia to West India
        1 bomber moved from Northwest Persia to Bryansk
        2 fighters moved from Northwest Persia to Bryansk
        2 fighters moved from Tobruk to Southern France
        1 destroyer moved from 123 Sea Zone to 109 Sea Zone
        2 infantry moved from Rhodesia to Belgian Congo
        2 infantry moved from Eastern Persia to West India
        3 infantry moved from Eastern Persia to Persia
        2 fighters and 1 tactical_bomber moved from Northwest Persia to Bryansk
        1 artillery and 2 infantry moved from Union of South Africa to Rhodesia
        3 mech_infantrys moved from Rhodesia to Tanganyika Territory

    Place Units - British
        1 artillery and 2 infantry placed in Persia
        3 infantry placed in Union of South Africa
        3 infantry placed in United Kingdom

    Turn Complete - British
        British collect 29 PUs; end with 29 PUs

    Place Units - UK_Pacific
        2 armour and 1 fighter placed in India

    Turn Complete - UK_Pacific
        UK_Pacific collect 18 PUs; end with 18 PUs
        Objective UK Pacific 2 Kwangtung And Malaya: UK_Pacific met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 23 PUs
        Some Units in India change ownership: 2 armour and 1 fighter

Combat Hit Differential Summary :

Americans regular : -3.00
Japanese regular : 0.33
Germans regular : -0.33
British regular : 1.83

Savegame

@andrewaagamer Great game! You have a very tough axis strategy and for much of hte game it felt like one mistake or one dicing would be the end of me. Even at the end, you were doing a great job staying in it despite my economic advantage.

I’ll comment more later. I’ll certainly be up for a rematch, but need to decide if I can do that now or if its better to wait to close out one of my other games first. At some point I have the BM final coming too and I’m finding it tough to keep up with 3 games as it is.

@andrewaagamer said in L23 2nd Ed OOB AndrewAAGamer (X) vs farmboy (Allies+60):

I do have one thought. Early on, J1, you gave me an even battle in Yunnan.

51% Axis win
6% draw
43% Allied win

I contemplated making the attack but decided against it thinking it may be a game winning or losing battle and I didn’t want get diced. However, since I lost badly, I wonder if that is a battle the Axis should take assuming the two players are of equal skill.

Do you think it is a game winning or losing battle?

I’m not sure if it is a game deciding battle, but it feels pretty significant. I attempted this in a face to face game this weekend, and for 13 in bid, it seems to help hold India as well as bringing the Med fleet around.

Assuming a draw or an Axis win that means 57% of the time the Axis win and 43% they lose. I certainly would be happy to win 57% of the time against a person of your caliber.

Assuming a draw Russia loses 3 planes. 2 of which were starting units and one from the Bid. Japan loses 4 planes. Which hurts more? Japan being down 4 planes or Russia being down to just one fighter? My gut is it hurts Russia a tiny bit more than it hurts Japan as it makes it easier for Germany to take Moscow.

If it is a game winning or losing battle then a lesser player would certainly make that attack.

I think a draw may be an Allied win - China can still buy artillery and land the fighter there. Also, those odds assume both bombers are attacking Yunnan, so the BS in 37 survives.

Making Japan risk a 50 / 50 battle on J1 is a win for the Allies.

@andrewaagamer because I’ve mostly played BM (and my thinking around allied strategy really developed while I was playing BM), its not a move I have a lot of experience with. BM gives the soviets and Japanese more of an incentive not to declare war on eachother and gives the axis more of an incentive for a later Japanese DOW.

So others might have a better sense of what happens when that move goes south for the allies. I knew it wasn’t a risk you typically go for and had checked out a couple of the games you had played where the allies did do that, and saw that you didn’t attack. So I thought it was pretty likely you wouldn’t go for it.

I was also fairly certain you would go for the British Battleship (and I think it may have been a mistake not too) and so that removes at least one bomber.

It is definitely bad for the Soviets to lose that air. And I’m definitely replacing at least one of them so that means the Soviets are also down 3 land units. But because I only need that air after the Germans invade in round 3 (or later when they reach Moscow), I do have time to make that up. My strategy for defending Moscow is always about allied pressure in the West and in making sure I have a ton of allied air that can reach from the Middle East (if not also from Greece and/or Norway) and so I would try to make sure a bit more allied air is going to be available for that. And knowing I have a weaker Japan makes it a bit easier to direct more resources to the Atlantic

And because Japan loses that air in a J1 DOW, its going to be immediately felt. I haven’t really looked, but I suspect it will mean, as Govz notes, I can stack Yunnan, and India, the US fleet, and the Soviet stack are all going to be a little safer.

But I’m definitely going for it in large part because I’m fairly confident my opponent isn’t going to attack, and its not a move I would necessarily make against a weaker player, precisely because they are more likely to go for it and let the dice determine the game. If Japan does go for it, and the dice go their way, the allies are in trouble.

@andrewaagamer I disagree with your assessment, Andrew. Against equal opponents, it is worth rolling the dice in Yunnan on J1 with that type of stack. If the Allies get more hits than the Axis on turn 1, retreat. You likely only lost your ground units. Maybe one or two planes if you are really unlucky.

If Japan is ahead on the dice after the first turn, they likely will win the territory without losing their uber-important bombers. It is a major blow to China as they might not be able to stack on Yunnan on J2, and a huge blow to Russia as they lost those critical planes that are necessary to defend Moscow and strike surgical counterattacks against German invaders.

Having the ability to retreat after seeing the results tips my recommendation towards Yunnan strike for equally-matched opponents. Definitely avoid against vastly inferior foes. Curious, based on my skill level, what did you think your chance of a W was at the start of the playoff match? 85%?

@arthur-bomber-harris If Japan really needs to go for it, than that is the way to do it. And you should be able to save most if not all the air. But I’m still probably not going to do it, unless I’m convinced that this is a game deciding battle (and I don’t think it is). One reason is that the battle is evenly matched in the first round, and the odds of coming out of it knowing that you will win will be less than the odds of actually winning. So you will often have to commit to the second round likely without having significantly improved odds. And of course you forgo the safer attack on the battleship for a riskier one that might either fail or cause significant attrition. Its also a set back to trade Japanese land units in a loss given how relatively scarce they are.

I’m curious what you saw as your other mistakes Andrew. I gave you several battles on the mainland with odds of better than 90%. I did so thinking these were likely going to be pyrrhic. In that while you would almost certainly win, you always had to go all in and would lose scarce ground units and/or trade air for inf and so would ultimately be in a weaker position in relation to the US or the other stacks I had on the mainland. I don’t think you were ever in a position where you could likely take and hold India or Yunnan. But given the situation, maybe you had to go for one of these and hope the dice helped.

Things have become a bit of a blur now but I had some thoughts on how it might have gone differently. Until I grabbed the Caroline Islands you were really efficient at ferrying land units from japan to the mainland. But I think a mistake may have been not building 1-2 more factories early in the game to keep producing land units.

And in Europe, you traded away the Italian and German fleets very early. In the long run, they are not going to survive, but I think you would have been better off making me go for them. Its not always easy to get enough allied force to feel that one can safely do it, and as long as they are there, I have to worry more about the threats to Egypt, Gibraltar, London and my landing on Norway and I may have had to play a bit more conservatively as a result.

@farmboy said in L23 2nd Ed OOB AndrewAAGamer (X) vs farmboy (Allies+60):

@arthur-bomber-harris If Japan really needs to go for it, than that is the way to do it. And you should be able to save most if not all the air. But I’m still probably not going to do it, unless I’m convinced that this is a game deciding battle (and I don’t think it is). One reason is that the battle is evenly matched in the first round, and the odds of coming out of it knowing that you will win will be less than the odds of actually winning. So you will often have to commit to the second round likely without having significantly improved odds. And of course you forgo the safer attack on the battleship for a riskier one that might either fail or cause significant attrition. Its also a set back to trade Japanese land units in a loss given how relatively scarce they are.

All of this is correct, and I would not attack as Japan because of it. The risk is way too high. Add in the opportunity cost of not being able to kill the BS in 37, and it isn’t worth it. The Axis are still the favorites. Japan has other options to win (or just help Germany win) than to risk a coin flip on the first turn.

And if this battle was really game deciding, the Axis could just lower the bid - though my 1st 13 in bid will be going to this. So my question is how does this change the bid?

@andrewaagamer If I remember correctly, @oysteilo used it too. He came close to winning too, but came up short. I’m guessing though that he might have played a bit more conservatively with the allies, retreating in situations where he may have been able to risk holding his ground.

Because I know Andrew does a J1, I am putting a good chunk of the bid in support of the Yunnan move and to defend India. In this game, I think the art in Amur was wasted and I could afford to drop a sub on the Europe side and another land unit without losing too much. After that, it feels hard to give things up.

I have updated my self on the discussion here. I am sure farmboy is correct abd i should have made a stand at places where i retreat. However, if defender (allies) only have 10% as farmboy suggest my DNA tells me to back off just because of the attackers advantage of retreating. Exactly what the limit is here is hard to say at least for me. Maybe 30% win is good enough for allies in many situations, but dont underestimate the power of going for it and retreat.

For the bid, I am convinced the allies should bid at least 2 art if not 3 in soviet far east. I think that is one of the reason i lost against Andrew. The soviets lost all income, with the art it would definately have happened much later.

+12 in soviet far east
+23 for the yunnan stack
+10 for scotland
+12 for 2 subs 106 and 110
+3 inf ng

@oysteilo If the axis do start attacking Yunnan and I’m finding the cost of it higher than the benefit, I’m adding another fighter too. I haven’t done this move a lot (I htink this might be the second time) because I haven’t used this approach in BM. So right now I’m willing to play this with a bit more risk just because it strikes me as a high risk move for the axis.

And just to clarify the odds, when i give the axis 90% (or better) odds, the goal is to create situations where there was allied pressure somewhere else and, if he went for it, he would always have traded units that he was going to need elsewhere. The point is not only to rely on your opponent’s playing conservatively but to create conditions where in the context of the whole board, victories are pyrrhic. In the pacific the Japanese player often is relying on a tonne of air, but lacks ground troops, an outcome is that they often trade the land units they need to hold and take territory on the mainland, or lose air that give him the edge in those battles and help keep the US fleet on the outside.