When do you think Jean Bart would have been completed?

I’ve been researching France in World War 2 recently, and I stumbled upon this article on JSTOR:

https://www.jstor.org/stable/286380?casa_token=HrDISj647xoAAAAA%3A4r0lrbG6dLMbOFV1mHpvWIxLmi5kgJmFmZ_TYY5Ct12HpfBVa87FyqGvcP00vs2G1JuM3ol2qcQ

Unfortunately, my regular free JSTOR account cannot access this.

Please let me know if you have access to this article in any way. Thank you!

Hello, my daughter found a fascinating letter from her great great uncle who arrived on the Normandy beaches D-Day +13 (19-June). He was British army royal signals. Sergeant Frank Sandys 2591478.

I’ve looked at the NARA database and some of the other posts about LST logs on here, but I’ve not been successful in locating any information about Frank’s two journeys. Unfortunately, I haven’t got the vessel registration numbers of either. Any advice or help would be greatly appreciated. Or indeed any information that would help build a bigger picture for my daughter of Frank’s journey and experience through Normandy as the campaign continued.

The initial LST left just after midnight in the morning of 18-June and in the heavy storm the cargo doors were broken open at 4:00 and the ship had to return to a port in England. It was apparently not repairable and Frank the British artillery and US forces with them boarded another landing ship tank which set off at around midnight on the 18th. They arrived in the early hours of the morning on the Normandy beaches on the 19th.

There was a major Richard Milliken, who may have been with Frank he sadly was killed by a German 88 mm shell in a vehicle with two other officers on the 20th of June (the day after Frank arrived).

I’ve shared a transcript of Frank’s letter below for anyone who might be interested in the personal account of those days. I think it gives a fascinating insight into that generations quiet stoicism and understated fortitude under fire and deprivation.

I’ve copied below a transcript of the letter and the timeline I created. We found records at the British National Archives in Kew (War Office ‘diaries’) that record Major Milliken’s death and the two other officers and we found their war graves. If anyone would like more information or the original images of the letter, let me know and I’ll post them also.

The new baby at home that Frank refers to, that he doesn’t know the name of yet, is my daughter’s still living grandad 🙂

Transcript:

2591478 Sgt Sandys. F.,

Csos Branch,

HQ Second Army Main,

B.W.E.F.

23 Jun 44

Dear Eldon and Ruth,

It’s a bit late in the day to be writing to thank you for your good wishes and cigarettes which you sent for my birthday, but I can assure you that the delay has not been indifference on my part. I was delighted with your long letter and very pleased to have the cigarettes (at the time I hadn’t got any, and couldn’t get any). Together with, a small parcel from home, and letters from Wilfred and Charlie, they all made the day a pretty good one. Thanks very much for everything anyway.

When we arrived in France your letter saying that you now have another son, was waiting for me.

Congratulations! I understand from a letter mother has since sent that both Ruth and the youngster (I don’t know what you have decided to call him), are doing well and I sincerely hope they are well and still progressing.

You would be thankful, I’m sure when it was all safely over and you had another boy in your family. Have you, I wonder, decided his name? You’ll have plenty to do for the next few months, what with Michael and the new arrival but as Eldon says, when they get a little older, as Michael now is, they are very good company and provide endless interest.

I should like to send something along for him, but at the moment it’s not possible for there are no shops here, and no facilities of any kind.

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You will have had father over since the event. Mother told me that he came up and apparently had a quiet journey - not many people on the train – far different to what he expected in fact.

I am sorry not to have written to you sooner but, during May and till the invasion started we were literally working night and day, and found it hard to get a few hours sleep even.

When D day came, however, things started to slacken off on the clerical side, but loading & packing was then the order of the day. This was a lengthy business on account of the waterproofing of loads, and all papers etc, but it was finished eventually with a few hours

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to spare, and we were called forward for shipment in the early hours one morning. The order was a typical Army one, for we were all asleep in the tents when the Rsm came round and told us all to be at a point 2 miles away, with all our kit inside 15 minutes. Needless to say, we hung around all that day, moving towards the embarkation point, with our lorries, at the rate of a ½ mile in an hour. In the evening we embarked on a Yankee L.S.T. and sailed in convoy about midnight or shortly afterwards. The sea was rough, and being a flat bottom ship, she rolled abominably. You may have seen this type of ship in Glasgow. They are quite big really and take a fairly heavy cargo.

Fortunately, I and the Draughtsman Sgt managed to get one of the few bunks which were available in the ship and so got in a little shut-eye till about 4 am when we awoke to the sound of terrific thuds against the ship’s side and the ship trembling as well as rolling. This didn’t make me feel very happy but when I saw the crew, with whom we were sleeping, getting on their M. West lifejackets, I felt genuinely alarmed. What had happened was that the Bow doors – huge things which are used for loading vehicles off the beach, had broken open with the rough sea, and were swinging against the ship’s side every time she rolled, making a terrific din and shaking the whole ship. Furthermore, the hold was taking water and the vehicle hold already had six inches in it.

We dropped out of the convoy then with a Corvette standing by about

one mile away – not near enough for my liking. At dawn I went on deck but it was impossible to move about. The crew were all clustered round the bows and waves coming over them every few minutes whilst the ship’s side rails were alternately in the water as she rolled. Presently we turned around and Major Millikin [sic: Maj R. Milliken 123370] who was in charge of our party said we were returning to England. We were only sailing very slowly now and so we continued for about 2 hours when the Capt. turned round again and continued to port in reverse – stern first.

We arrived in harbour about 2pm, staying on the ship till about dinner time the following day when we went into dock. Apparently nothing could be done about repairs as later in the afternoon, we left the dock and sailed up coast

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to the beach where unloading could take place. At tea time we disembarked and were provided with cigarettes, chocolate, biscuits, newspapers and a good meal.

I must say the yanks do you very well on the ships – the food was excellent – all tinned but really good stuff and plenty of it.

It was funny to see all the lads dashing off to the nearest pub as soon as we disembarked, only to find when they got inside that they had only French money in their pockets, having changed all English money previously.

We hung about the beach for 4 or 5 hours watching ships loading and unloading and landing craft disgorging long lines of wounded, until we embarked in another ship ourselves about midnight.

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We sailed again that night and arrived here at dusk the following night, coming ashore after dark. It was just coming light when we were passing through the first French village and very strange it all seemed in the half light.

When we arrived in our area it was raining heavily and it continued to do so all day which wasn’t so good whilst we were erecting tents, particularly as each tent had to be dug in 2 ft or so. However we worked hard and finally completed the putting up of camp by tea time.

The following day Maj Millikin [sic: Milliken] and 2 other offrs were killed when a shell hit their vehicle. It is very noisy around here with bombing and A.A. Once or twice the Germans

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have shelled our area with their 88 mm guns, but didn’t do much damage and there were only a few casualties.

We are situated in a farm. There aren’t many French civilians about but what few there are look remarkably well fed, and prosperous for an alleged starving country. Prices seem to be high though for they charge 5 francs (about 6d) for an egg, if you can get one.

Our own food isn’t so bad though. All canned stuff, of course, but quite good apart from the hard biscuits instead of bread. Your jaws tire before you’re full, eating these biscuits.

Today is a beautiful hot day and I’ve taken the opportunity of having a bath – 2 biscuit tins,

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full of water, a piece of canvas for a little screen, all the lot underneath our apple tree, is how I organised it.

Well, I’m afraid I’ve gone rambling on in this letter, longer than I intended. I should be glad tho’ to have a few lines from you to hear how baby is going on.

Thanks again for the birthday present. Hope you are all well.

Love to you all,

Frank.

Abbreviations:

Sgt = Sergeant

Csos Branch = CSO’s Branch = Chief Signals Officer’s Branch

HQ = Headquarters

B.W.E.F. = British Western European Force, later redesignated British Liberation Army (BLA)

Rsm = RSM = Regimental Sergeant Major

L.S.T. = Landin

g Ship, Tank

M. West = Mae West

A.A. = Anti-aircraft

Timeline:

Sergeant Frank Sandys’ Normandy Timeline (June 1944)

Pre-D-Day (May 1944 - June 6, 1944):

Activities: Frank was engaged in intense, “night and day” clerical duties until the invasion started.

Post-D-Day Preps (June 6, 1944 - approx. June 16, 1944): After D-Day, clerical work “started to slacken off”, but “loading & packing was then the order of the day”. This was a “lengthy business” involving waterproofing all loads and papers, which was eventually finished with “a few hours to spare”. This period covers roughly 10-12 days after D-Day.

First Embarkation & Incident (Estimated: June 17, 1944):

Early hours: Frank and his unit were “called forward for shipment” from their tents.

All day: They “hung around all that day, moving towards the embarkation point, with our lorries, at the rate of a ½ mile in an hour”.

Evening (about midnight or shortly afterwards): They “embarked on a Yankee L.S.T. and sailed in convoy”.

LST Incident & Return to England (Estimated: June 18, 1944):

~4 AM: Frank awoke to “terrific thuds against the ship’s side”. The “Bow doors…had broken open with the rough sea”, and the “hold was taking water”.

Dawn: They “dropped out of the convoy” with a Corvette standing by. Major Milliken confirmed they were “returning to England”.

Journey to Port: They sailed “very slowly” for “about 2 hours”, then the captain turned around and continued to port in reverse, stern first.

~2 PM: They “arrived in harbour”.

Time in England & Second Embarkation (Estimated: June 18 - 19, 1944):

Remainder of June 18th - Dinner time June 18th: They stayed on the LST in the harbour until “about dinner time the following day when we went into dock”.

June 18, 1944 (Later Afternoon): “Apparently nothing could be done about repairs as later in the afternoon, we left the dock and sailed up coast to the beach where unloading could take place”.

June 18, 1944 (Tea time): They “disembarked” from the damaged ship at the beach. They were provided with cigarettes, chocolate, biscuits, newspapers, and a good meal.

June 18, 1944 (4-5 hours): They “hung about the beach for 4 or 5 hours watching ships loading and unloading and landing craft disgorging long lines of wounded”.

June 19, 1944 (~Midnight - early hours of June 18th/19th crossing): They “embarked in another ship ourselves”. This embarkation took place around midnight on June 18th, leading to an early morning arrival in Normandy on the 19th.

Normandy Arrival & Camp Setup (June 19, 1944):

Early Morning (June 19th): After sailing “that night”, it was “just coming light when we were passing through the first French village and very strange it all seemed in the half light.”

Day (June 19th): They “arrived in our area” while it was “raining heavily” and they worked hard erecting tents, “digging in 2 ft or so”.

Tea time (June 19th): They “completed the putting up of camp”.

Major Milliken’s Death (June 20, 1944):

June 20, 1944 (Confirmed Fatalities): “The following day Maj Millikin [Milliken] and 2 other offrs were killed when a shell hit their vehicle”. Frank notes the area was “very noisy… with bombing and A.A.” and “the Germans have shelled our area with their 88 mm guns”. They were situated on a farm.

June 21 - 22, 1944 (Activities after Major Milliken’s Death):

Frank’s letter implies events continuing, but does not provide specific day-by-day actions for these two days. He mentions being on a farm and general conditions like prices for eggs and their food.

June 23, 1944:

Letter Written: Frank writes the letter home from Normandy, describing the "beautiful

hot day" and taking a bath.

I was reading this document (https://history.army.mil/html/books/104/104-20/CMH_Pub_104-20.pdf) which counted the Panzer 1 as a tankette. Do any of you think this is a better description for the vehicle than a light tank? It’s not much heavier than some Japanese tankettes and its armament and crew size is certainly similar.

This is the first time I’ve heard of classifying the vehicle as a tankette, which is why I find it noteworthy.

@Coldwarrior1984

Reading this, I feel strongly you’re confused about the nature of the German defenses in Normandy. In combination, I feel you are overestimating the Allies ability to place smoke as precisely and in the quantity that would have been required to have a chance to accomplish the goal you lay out. I also feel you’re overestimating the effectiveness of smoke even if I grant that none of the above was an issue.

I’ve been to Normandy three times with tour guides. I’ve read everything from Ambrose and Osprey on Overlord. I’m tempted to repeat my initial post about why you don’t hear or see this tactic being performed en masse in the many assaults in the Pacific or Mediterranean.

I’ll just sum this up and say that the German fighting positions were not composed primarily of Saving Private Ryan style bunkers but widerstandsnest with Tobruks across so much acreage that a simultaneous precision smoke affect against all of them for the required time to get everyone ashore is less realistic that just a mass smoke bombardment of the beach area.

If I was going into Tank on Tank combat I’m taking the M4 Sherman. Better sights, better visibility, an actual turret basket, better ergonomics, better mechanical reliability, and with the 76mm variant a very capable anti armor gun. As well as far more reliable armor due to high production quality standards. The M4 armor is reliable face hardened. The T34 could be correctly hardened, too hard so that it’s brittle or too soft.

If I was trying to drive a tank to get into a fight, the M4 is the obvious choice due to the much better reliability.

If I had to pick a tank to work on. M4 again due to its easy to repair design.

If I wanted to drive a comfortable tank well that’s no contest it’s the M4. Also it’s an easier to drive tank due to the vastly superior production quality.

So the M4 is a vastly superior weapons platform the only reason they seem comparable is on paper armor thickness and gun. Off of paper they aren’t close. Like pretty much all Russian military equipment they seem intimidating but ultimately are trash. Like how the T 72 got smashed by the M2 bradely and infantry fighting vehicle not even a tank.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2102796/Did-Hitler-father-lovechild-New-claims-emerge-Fuhrer-son-Frenchwoman.html

German army papers showed that officers brought envelopes of cash to Miss Lobjoie during the Second World War.

After she died, Mr Loret found paintings in her attic which were signed by Hitler. In Germany, a portrait of a woman painted by the Fuhrer emerged that looked remarkably like Miss Lobjoie.

Patton is one of the most interesting characters in WW2.

First of all look at how the Germans feared him. They were terrified of the man. Secondly a good many of Patton’s strategic and tactical viewpoints came to pass about both the 2nd World War and the Cold War. The man also had a sense of justice. He forced German civilians that tried to ignore the existence of the concentration camps to walk through the horrors there. As a tactician and commander I doubt we had anyone better than Patton.

The man had his faults certainly. The two incidents of slapping a soldier (he discharged a firearm in at least one of those, not sure about the second), he always seemed to have trouble managing his supply lines, and he always had trouble keeping his opinions quiet. He blundered severely sending troops to liberate a POW camp that happened to have his son in law as a prisoner. Patton never believed in shell shock, “battle fatigue”.

I really enjoyed Rick Atkinson’s first two books (Army at Dawn and Day of Battle). Patton is a major player in Army At Dawn (focused on North Africa). In the second book Patton is involved briefly but you learn many of his predictions about the fight in Italy prove to be correct. I look forward to third which focuses from D-day to the end of the war. I was disappointed in the amount of time Jeff Shaara devoted to Patton in “No Less Than Victory”. True a wealth of information is already recorded about Patton but writing any WW@ novel without Patton would be like writing about the Shenandoah Valley without mentioning Stonewall Jackson.

I believe that some authors portray Patton with a bias and marginalize Patton (most notably alternative writer Harry Turtledove). Part of this is because Patton offers so much stuff to criticize in his character. Part of it also comes from the fact it is popular to criticize anyone that could be considered conservative today.

@Subotai:

until now, war that Europeans have been fighting since before 500 B.C.  Reasons have never changed, explanations and propaganda have changed quite a lot.

I like the “larger picture” viewpoint expressed here. It’s almost more philosophical than anything else. We as humans, are a conquering species, constantly at war for one anothers resources and territory. We collectively at base instinct, in my opinion, are insatiable, selfish and greedy. Hence wherever man is gathered you will find curruption to these degrees. It cracks me up when people say there’s so much blood on the hands of “the government” or “organized religion”. Try wherever mankind gathers in masses. There you will find these things. It’s what we are.

Now on a smaller more specific scale, I believe the Treaty of Versailles caused WW2. Hands down. Our US delegate, (I don’t feel like looking up his name to remember) would not sign that treaty and said something to the degree of “I see 21 wars in this treaty.” …or something to that degree (sorry if I misquoted)

That treaty was drawn up and then carried out in the manner of revenge and the poverty stricken and vastly anti sematic climate was ripe for a national socialist movement to become a solution to Germany’s woes. The Allies were demmanding that Germany, in addition to paying astronomical restitutions on many levels were also demmanding the army hand over thousands of veterans to become prisoners. Hate was in the air and I believe this treaty ultimately, was the match that lit the proverbial kindling.