L21 playoff OOB jkeller(X) vs trulpen (L+43)

The transports are not doing anything. The land units are. The rulebook does not say they cannot load in noncombat. It says they cannot “ move and load”. So are we playing by the rulebook or what you think it SHOULD be? And by the way there is no way it’s in any way logical to not allow Japan in this case not to load in a sea zone it controls completely in EITHER phase

So either way by the spirit of the law or the letter of the law the transports can load

@gamerman01 said in L21 playoff OOB jkeller(X) vs trulpen (L+43):

Page 13-14 Europe second ed. manual:

Sea Units Starting in Hostile Sea Zones
At the beginning of the Combat Move phase, you might
already have sea units (and air units on carriers) in spaces
containing enemy units that were there at the start of
your turn. For example, an enemy might have built new
surface warships in a sea zone where you have sea units.
When your turn comes around again, you are sharing that
sea zone with enemy forces.
14
Sea Movement Example: Sea units other than
submarines must end their movement when they enter
a hostile sea zone. The destroyer must stop in this zone.
However, the submarine can pass through safely because
the enemy unit isn’t a destroyer.
Amphibious Assault Example: Amphibious assault
movement occurs during the Combat Move phase. In
this example, the U.S. battleship must destroy the enemy
destroyer in the sea combat in order to clear the hostile
sea zone so that the transport can offload into Normandy/
Bordeaux. If there had been only defending submarines
and/or transports, the attacking U.S. player could have
ignored those units, or could have conducted sea combat.
If you are sharing a sea zone with surface warships (not
submarines and/or transports) belonging to a power with
which you are at war, this situation requires you to do one
of the following:
• Remain in the sea zone and conduct combat,
•ve the sea zone, load units if desired, and conduct
combat elsewhere,
• Leave the sea zone, load units, and return to the same
sea zone to conduct combat (you can’t load units while
in a hostile sea zone), or
• Leave the sea zone and conduct no combat.

Page 22, Europe Manual 2nd edition:
Phase 4: Noncombat Move
In this phase, you can move any of your units that didn’t move in the Combat Move phase or participate in combat
during your turn.

You can’t load units from Japan with the transports in zone 6 because according to the bullet points, your transports have to do a combat move, either to escape the zone, to get out of the zone to avoid combat, to stay in the zone for combat, or to leave the zone, pick up ground units, and conduct amphibious assault in the combat movement phase, which could include back in zone 6.
The noncombat rule from page 22 says if a unit participated in combat (which is necessarily true whether you moved your transports during combat move or not, because only aircraft can move in both the combat and combat movement phases) then it can’t move

Page 22:
“Transports can move to friendly coastal territories
and load or offload cargo, unless they loaded, moved,
offloaded, or were involved in combat during the Combat
Move or Conduct Combat phase.”

Your transports must necessarily move during the combat movement phase, whether staying in the zone to conduct combat or to move away, so they can’t move in the noncombat phase. Moving doesn’t just mean to another zone, it means it can’t move to shore to load units either.

And in case there’s still a doubt:
Page 14:
“Once these sea units have moved and/or participated in
combat, they can’t move or participate in the Noncombat
Move phase of the turn.”

You can’t participate in the noncombat phase of the turn, which would certainly include loading or unloading transports. They can’t do anything after conducting combat, same as anything else except aircraft.

There are the two that are happening:
Step 1:
Remain in the sea zone and conduct combat

Step 2:

Once these sea units have moved and/or participated in

combat, they can’t move or participate in the Noncombat
Move phase of the turn."

In axis and Allie’s a “movement” is from one territory or sea zone to another. There are no rules or even a definition of movement WITHIN a territory or sea zone. So by rule the transport is NOT moving in noncombat so this rule you quotes does not apply in this case

The transports are not “moving or participating in noncombat” the same way you can load units on a foreign powers transports and it is not even their turn to move or have a noncombat phase!

I said they aren’t participating in NON combat just as if they were a foreign power transports which I think we have all loaded onto and it’s not even their turn

@trulpen and we load onto foreign transports when it’s the land units turn. The move is the land units move not the transports. There are certain situations where they cannot be loaded onto and they are all specifically delineated and this is not one of them

So unless someone can point to the spot in the rulebook where loading is not allowed in this case and so far no one has then I will load the units

Opinions have been stated but rules have not been pointed out to support your point of view. So I will be following the rules not anyones opinion of what they should say or what you want them to say but did not say even though that would be completely illogical

Foreign transport loading is very relevant here because it proves what the rules already state by disallowing “movement” but NOT loading during noncombat. Namely that the movement of loading is a movement by the land units and not the transport

@trulpen said in L21 playoff OOB jkeller(X) vs trulpen (L+43):

I don’t think foreign transports are relevant here. They are a special case though. Loading and unloading is mainly an action by tr.

It has been thoroughly pointed out, even though you choose to reject the input. The rules are clear.

This is your opinion which you got some of your buddies to sign off on but I have not seen it yet in the rules and try as you might none of you have either. If you can point it out I will happily move on and quit this game because it would make the whole game kind of silly.

I’m any case if that were the case they would be done on the transports move in the case of multinational forces and not on the land units turn

I guess you aren’t reading my messages because if you were and you could comprehend and understand logic which I assume you can because you are quite good at this game you wouldn’t have posted that. So you just want to win regardless if it’s by the rules or not?

And no the rules are not what you and your buddies say they are it’s what the rulebook says they are

They are Not doing anything the land units are loading on to them just as they can load onto an allied transport even though it’s not their turn either. Are you contending that Allied transports take part in noncombat phase even though it’s not their turn? Clearly that is a huge stretch. Clearly the transports cannot MOVE in noncombat. ( which is clearly stated multiple places in the rules). But nowhere does it say you cannot load units in noncombat in this situation. Maybe you assumed it but it is not stated in the rules. Nothing in the rulebook supports your point of view and several support mine. If I was wrong I would take this as a lesson and move on. I don’t just concede the point when I know I am right though. Never have never will.