Why should Japan attack at turn 1?

Thank you very much Panther. This clarifies the question.

@akreider2 said in China: attacking with infantry 3 vs 1:

For me, I’m interested in the scenario where Japan has relatively unlimited resources to crush you (in terms of planes) and a handful of infantry. So you are balancing your goal of maximizing the probability that you will kill that one infantry, versus preserving your infantry for the 2-4 turns that China can expect to live by retreating.

This is typically in the first 4 rounds of the game when China is retreating/generally getting crushed.

Would hit with 2 then, but again it depends on what else Japan has to hit. Their resources are not always unlimited (e.g., Russians, British, Americans in play)

Actually UK raiding Italian navy might promote Sea Lion because UK just weakened their airforce against Germany and if UK was too stupid to beef up London, Germany might favor it.

The Allies certainly have the option for waiting until turn 2 before stacking Yunnan if Japan fails on J1.  The Chinese will easily have enough units to retake the territory and likely will just use minimal forces if Japan did not issue a DOW on J2.  at the end of their Chi2 turn, they easily could have 14 infantry + 6 art + 1 fighter stacked in Szechwan.  That is an impressive army against the weak Axis forces in Asia.

If this is a no-bid / non-mod game, the Axis still can come back to win the game by capturing Moscow or heading down into the oilfields.  I don’t think that I could come back for a win with BM rules.

@knp7765:

@theROCmonster:

@Young:

We experimented with a house rule that gave the US the War Bonds breakthrough for free once they entered the war, it was no big deal to give that to them, and it was fun to see how each roll for more money turned out for the American player.

Sounds fun. I think it would be interesting to give each of the major powers a free tech at the end of turn 3. What would you choose for each power as your tech?

Germany = Jet Fighters
USSR = Advanced Artillery
Japan = Super Subs
USA = War Bonds or Increased Factory Production
China = none
UK = Radar
Italy = Improved Shipyards
ANZAC = Long Range Aircraft
France = Heck, why not give them Heavy Bombers. They won’t be able to use them anyway.

Looks good!

Things I learned about fighting China:

1:  Try to control them not conquer them.  Contain them from getting to the coast.  Always be able to take the road back.

2:  I have found that an IC in Kiangsu can work.  I always have some land based Aircraft that are designated for Chinese attacks.  Spend what Chinas income is as a rule of thumb at the IC.  I usually buy 3 mechs a turn.  Movement to the road is quicker and supporting Aircraft make most fights manageable.  Going transports can work too.  Just a lot harder logistics.  Japans Achilles heel:  getting troops to the land.

3:  Dont be afraid to slam a chinese stack with just Airforce!! Especially early turns.  Kill that flying tiger whenever you can.  The payoff is much greater than the potential loss of aircraft.

4:  Fight China with the end goal of getting to India!  Once you have Calcutta the road is closed!  Do not let the allies coordinate!  Russia cant be helping china or UK reinforcing them.  Keep them isolated from each other.

5:  Know when to leave them be.  Concentrating on China to much can hamper all the other objectives Japan must accomplish.  Dont let it be a money pit.

Just some thoughts on fighting China.  I have yet to play the perfect Japanese game but i would suggest giving them another chance.  They are a blast to play.  Sometimes you have to understand what your role as Japan is going to be.  They are sometimes very dependent on what Germany does or how Germany is doing.  Have fun!

@Jeff28:

How is your IPC income during this strategy Spendo?

Do you have another partial fleet running round the money islands?

Are you building factories on the mainland?

Note this is NOT a J1 attack, but a J4 attack

J1 (26 IPC starting)
Buy Naval Base (15) - Placed on Hainan and not Formosa (like I think I said earlier)
Buy 1 Artillery (4)
Buy 1 Trn (7)
IPC Remaining (0)

Load Trn in SZ19 with 1 Inf, 1 Art from Manchuria. Drop off at Kwangsi
Load Trn in SZ6 with 1 Inf, 1 Art from Japan.  Drop off at Kwangsi
Move Trn in SZ20 to SZ6
Move entire fleet into SZ36
Move Manchuria Units into Jehol (5 Inf, 1 Mech)
Move 4 Inf from Korea into Manchuria
Leave Caroline Islands Fleet alone

Take Chahar (1) Anhwe (1) Hunan (1) Yunnan (1) = +4 IPC
Stay Neutral = +10 IPC
J1 Collect (26 + 10 + 4) + IPC Remaining (0) = 40 IPC

J2 (40 IPC to Spend)
Buy 3 Inf (9)
Buy 2 Art (8)
Buy 2 Trn (14)
IPC Remaining (9)

Load 1 Trn in SZ6 with 1 Inf, 1 Tank from Japan.  Drop off at Kwangsi
Load 1 Trn in SZ6 with 1 Inf, 1 Art from Japan.  Drop off at Kwangsi
Move 1 Trn from SZ36 to SZ6.  Pick up the Inf in Okinawa
Move 1 Trn from SZ36 to SZ19.  Pick up 2 Inf from Manchuria
Move 5 Inf from Jehol to Anhwe
Move 2 Inf from Manchuria into Jehol
(Moved the Mech Inf from Jehol to Suiyuyan’s attack)
Keep both fleets in position

If I did my math right, after unit placement Japan is holding 3 purchased Inf, 3 purchased Art.  Its +1 from the pickup at Okinawa and has moved 3 of its original Inf to have 3 of its original remaining.  Thats a total of 4 Inf + 3 Purchased + 3 Art.  It has 2 Trn just purchased and placed, plus 1 that moved in from SZ36 for a total of 3 Trn in SZ6 ending J2.

Take Suiyuyan (1) Hopei (1) Kweichow (1) = +3 IPC
Retake Yunnan (0) Because already counted from J1
Neutral NO = +10 IPC
IPC not lost from J1 = +4 IPC
J2 Collect (26 + 10 + 4 + 3) IPC + Remaining IPC (9) = 52 IPC

J3 (52 IPC to Spend)
Buy 1 AC (16)
Buy 1 TacB (11)
Buy 1 Ftr (10)
Buy 2 Subs (12)
Buy 1 Inf
Remaining IPC (0)

Move 1 Trn from SZ19 to SZ20.  Drop off 2 Inf at Kiangsi
Move 1 Trn from SZ36 to SZ6
Move 1 Trn from SZ6 to SZ19, pick up 2 Inf.  Drop off at Kiangsi
Move 5 Inf from Anhwe to Kweichow
Move 1 Inf from Shensi to Tsinghai
Move entire Fleet in SZ36 to SZ33
Fly 2 StratB from Mainland to Caroline Islands

Take Kansu (1) Shensi (1) = +2 IPC (need one more turn for units to get down from Manchuria/Korea into Kweichow to take Szechwan and China’s Fighter.
Retake Yunnan (0) But may not have to depending on how China fares on its J2 attack
Neutral NO = +10 PIC
IPC not lost from J1 = +4 IPC
IPC not lost from J2 = +3 IPC
J3 Collect (26 + 10 + 4 + 3 + 2) + Remaining IPC (1) = 46 IPC

J4 (46 IPC to spend)
Buy 4 Destroyers (32)
Buy 2 Inf (6)
Buy 2 Art (8)
Remaining IPC (0)

Take FIC (2) Kwangtung (3) Sikang (1) Szechwan (1) = +7 IPC
IPC not lost from J1-J3 = +9 IPC
NO: Hold Honolulu = +5 IPC
J4 Collect (26 + 9 + 7 + 5) + Remaining IPC (0) = 47 IPC

Move 2 Trn from SZ20 to SZ6
Move all remaining units towards Yuunan.  The English are coming!

Send the entire kitchen sink from Caroline / Japan against Hawaii.

Just for clarity, Japan brings against Hawaii:
4 Subs
4 Destroyers
2 Cruisers
2 Battleships
4 Fighters
4 TacB’s
2 StratB’s

USA fields:
1 Sub
2 Destroyers
2 Cruisers
1(3) Battleship
1(3) AC
1(2) Fighter (AC)
1 TacB (AC)
2(3) Fighters (Scramble from Hawaii)

Add in 2 Battleships (U1/U2), 2 AC(U1/U2), 1 Fighter from W.USA, 1 Fighter flown in from the Philippines.  USA2 could also opt to purchase a fighter instead of a second AC (likely) with their remaining 16 IPC.  Placement of that Fighter is essential as is the decision where that fighter in Eastern US ends up.  Both those fighters show up in Hawaii, you’re in for a fight to the death in Hawaii.

USA3 Purchases will never make it to Hawaii in time, but can counter so take note of that.  If USA has more than 6 fighters on/around Hawaii, this attack is a 50-50 shot.  With 6 or less, your looking at 85% odds of winning.  USA starts with 3 fighters already there.  Western US is the 4th, the Philippines is the 5th, USA2 Purchase is the 6th.  However, if Italy/Germany stage at SZ91 and put the threat on Eastern US at the end of G3 - USA cannot ignore it and you’ll ensure fighters/ships are finding their way headed to Eastern USA and not the Pacific on a USA3 purchase / non-combat moves.

Amphibious Assault constitutes 4 Trn loaded with 5 Inf and 3 Art from SZ6.  Unless the US is buying transports and/or moving units from Eastern US into Western to ferry across the most ground units on Hawaii are 4 Inf, 1 Mech, 1 Art.  You have a 83% chance of winning this battle, losing probably 4 Inf.

Drawbacks:

You leave yourself bare in the pacific for Anzac to have fun with your islands.  
You never touched India-UK’s fleet.
You WILL lose ships in the Hawaii attack.  Chances are you walk away with 2 damaged Battleships, maybe 2 fighters and you moved in 4 AC.  I had one very good roll where I survived with 3 fighters and 1 TacB plus the aforementioned ships but I absolutely killed USA on the second round of rolls.

You have 4 Destroyers, 2 Trn in SZ6 off Japan ending J4.  Just enough to go straight after the Philippines if you so choose.  Those 4 Destroyers can also move their way straight to Hawaii to protect against a US sub purchase after J4 to protect whatever ships survived the Hawaii assault.  They also bring with them 2 Inf, 2 Art on Transports to reinforce Hawaii (or stage for a move into Western US on J6).

All the money islands are free for the Allies to take.
You’re going to lose a TON of IPC value off the board by trying to take Burma with a limited ground force and no reinforcements in sight.
The British ARE coming.

Projecting beyond this point is hazardous for my health, so I will just leave suggestions:

I think the best strategy at this point is retreating to Caroline.  Leave any surviving fighters/infantry you have there to force the US to fully commit to taking Hawaii back.  Move all Trn to Japan.  It gives you the ability to project against Anzac, or to take out whatever India-UK tries to move up the coast.  You’ll be in range of purchased fighters from Japan this way as well so you can quickly land 2 fighters, 2 TacB on your AC in any zone that the Allies go after (SZ36, SZ33, or back into Hawaii at SZ26).  With 4 Destroyers, 2 TP loaded with 2 Inf, 2 Art, and 2 repaired Battleships you’ll be able to roll 6 die for 4’s against any of the tiny fleets that are kicking up dirt in the Pacific as well as to start taking the IPC islands.  Just realize that China is a lost cause and you are just playing turtle between Burma and Yunnan.  I’d probably project myself against the Philippines as soon as possible to deny the US another 5 IPC and then start ferrying more units down into south east Asia from Japan.  Something along the lines of 2 inf, 2 Art (14), 1 Fighter/1 TacB (21) for the next few turns.

@Gargantua:

Yea… I Just wanted to talk some smack.  HOWEVER there is a Singular truth.

This only applies to GLOBAL  in Europe you lose the -2 for France…  This is what spawned my original thought - as my last game I only scavenged 17 from France!

But… if France conquers North Italy, their income goes up with 4, no? That would make 21 IPC! Et voila!