@VictoryFirst Glad you are ok. Your message is well received I would guess, since a lot here were worried! :-)
I will do my best to lead Germany as good as it can get!
NML 1914 - Team Game #3
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Is it churlish to worry about this when the Entente are so close to victory?
Perhaps not. Either Austria should not have been able to spend the money. @redrum describes this as a bug and I guess that everyone except him was taken by surprise?
Or even if we by some strange logic decided that Austria should have the money, then Italy would have spent everything it could rather than banked it, meaning we need to make some edits.
However, if the CPs disagree I guess we should be sporting about it. @redrum is on our side and was party to the plan intending to pass the money to Russia via Vienna’s bank, so we have no excuse for not knowing. If only he had told us!
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@private-panic Well Ron could not have known that france planned to leave not one behind
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@elrood Nor did he tell us of the need to do so Seb. But I would hope that the CPs will have a chat and make a sensible decision. We should be willing to be sporting. I am certain that they will also be willing to be so. :slightly_smiling_face:
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@private-panic I know what you mean, but a bug is a bug is a bug. And should not be exploited. Only because your team is winning you will not let the offside, or hand play slide to be a good sport, would you?
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@elrood My last reply specifically addresses your point I think Seb. We now need to give the CPs a chance to have a chat.
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@private-panic ah I see… soo in contemporary words: “this is not 'nam! There are rules!”
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This situation is not a bug. When a power captures a territory, it’s stated economic income value is added to the captor’s national production level. This income is routinely collected every turn by whomever controls that territory. It’s essentially an income or property tax.
When a capital is captured, its stated territory income is treated the same way. However, in addition, it’s treasury is raided, and per page 21 of the rulebook for Europe 1940 Second Edition, the unspent IPC’s are “immediately” transferred.
This one time income transfer is not the same as routine economic income, and therefore, one should not automatically assume it be treated the same way. If a defender had been left in the capital, the conquest and transfer of the treasury would not have occurred prior to the purchase phase. Since conquest occurred during combat movement phase, the treatment is open to interpretation. One can’t assume the intentions of the authors, just because the rulebook doesn’t explicitly address this unusual circumstance.
I choose to interpret it as it stands. Our particular situation is one of a kind. The more common reason to leave a defender in the capital is to prevent the capturing power from building immediately, rather than from losing the treasury income completely.
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Dawg, its your turn.
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Sorry, to clarify, I was just pointing out that this is a known issue with having combat move before purchase which NML and other TripleA maps do instead of the standard purchase at the start. This game is honestly way over at this point so no need to edit anything and generally we play by how TripleA enforces it unless specified otherwise in the rules.
@FMErwinRommel So NML is primarily based on AA-50 not Global ruleset. That being said the issue is due to the combat move being before purchase phase so none of the official A&A rulesets will address it. The motivation behind doing combat move first in many large TripleA maps is to make purchase easier so you can decide what you are going to attack to better plan your purchase but the goal wasn’t to impact any of the default rules (capital capture was essentially a side effect). While the NML rules don’t list this, the WaW rules (which are fairly similar to NML) actually specify the differences including this one due to the changed phase order and recommend leaving a cheap unit to avoid the issue:
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@redrum Where can the rules for WAW be found? I looked but saw none
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@redrum Okay then - if that’s the rules then let’s get on …
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@private-panic said in NML 1914 - Team Game #3:
@redrum Okay then - if that’s the rules then let’s get on …
Not sure are all on the same page. I asked for the WAW rules, because I belief that screenshot from Redrum is out of context, at least it contradicts what he says above.
I expect the rules displayed there to be in a context of: “stuff that is not working as it should be, due to the engine limitations” as opposed to “this is how this works”
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@elrood I understand your frustration Seb, but @redrum is the expert on this game and I am happy to be guided by him. If he had told us in advance you would have left an infantry there and carried on, but he didn’t. From that perspective the error is on our side and the CPs should not suffer because of that. Let’s just get on and win this game and then start another in good spirits. :clown_face:
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- I am not frustrated
- CP are not suffering because of that rule. Dawg and I are suffering, because for 24 turns we are on the decline, trying to hold it together while having actually no options to draw from instead of just stacking up our defending stacks.
- I know you and redrum are having the times of our lives by waltzing through CP defenses now, and you might feel gracious enough to let it slide, but that Rome move, was THE only excitement I got from France’s participation in the war. To see it taken away from me by some engine bug, feels weird.
- is not even a small victory for Italy/France, but a saving grace move in inevitable loss (of Rome).
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- I’d like to see the rules, to be certain if it is really acknowledged as a bug in that game due to engine limitations
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@redrum: Thanks for the background and WAW documentation.
@elrood: You did a good job of helping Dawg delay the conquest of Italy, while still defending Paris. The southern French army had a strong offense that forced me to be more defensive.
The difference between a one-time raid of the treasury is not akin to routine economic income and thus one should not assume it requires equal treatment.
Dawg got his Arabs back and you are getting your Serbs back. That should be enough satisfaction for one mortal. -
@elrood If you launch World At War and go to the notes tab on the right, you can see all the rules. World At War is much more polished than NML so the notes are more thorough and touch on more of the edge cases like this.
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Game History
Round: 24 Research Technology - Russia Russia spend 0 on tech rolls Russia roll 6,1,5 and gets 1 hit Russia removing all Technology Tokens after successful research. Russia discover armour Combat Move - Russia 3 fighters moved from Belarus to Galicia 4 fighters moved from Romania to Galicia 1 conscript moved from Odessa to Galicia 1 conscript moved from Belarus to Galicia 2 conscripts moved from Romania to Galicia 1 field_gun moved from Romania to Galicia 1 infantry moved from Romania to Galicia 1 conscript moved from Romania to Galicia 1 infantry moved from Romania to Galicia 83 field_guns moved from Carpathia to Vienna 5 heavy_guns moved from Carpathia to Vienna 1 field_gun moved from Eastern Poland to Western Poland 1 infantry moved from Eastern Poland to Galicia 1 conscript moved from Eastern Poland to Western Poland 1 field_gun moved from Eastern Poland to Warsaw 1 conscript moved from Eastern Poland to Warsaw 2 infantry moved from Eastern Poland to Warsaw 1 conscript moved from Eastern Poland to Western Poland 1 infantry moved from Eastern Poland to Warsaw 2 conscripts and 17 fighters moved from Bratsk to Tiksi Purchase Units - Russia Russia buy 11 cavalrys, 10 conscripts, 12 field_guns, 1 fighter, 2 heavy_guns and 8 infantry; Remaining resources: 0 PUs; 0 techTokens; Combat - Russia Battle in Warsaw Russia attack with 1 conscript, 1 field_gun and 3 infantry Germany defend with 1 Factory, 2 infantry and 1 trench Russia roll dice for 1 conscript, 1 field_gun and 3 infantry in Warsaw, round 2 : 1/5 hits, 1.17 expected hits Units damaged: 1 trench owned by the Germany Germany roll dice for 2 infantry and 1 trench in Warsaw, round 2 : 1/3 hits, 0.83 expected hits 1 conscript owned by the Russia lost in Warsaw Russia roll dice for 1 field_gun and 3 infantry in Warsaw, round 3 : 2/4 hits, 1.17 expected hits Germany roll dice for 2 infantry and 1 trench in Warsaw, round 3 : 2/3 hits, 0.83 expected hits 1 infantry owned by the Germany, 2 infantry owned by the Russia and 1 trench owned by the Germany lost in Warsaw Russia roll dice for 1 field_gun and 1 infantry in Warsaw, round 4 : 0/2 hits, 0.83 expected hits Germany roll dice for 1 infantry in Warsaw, round 4 : 0/1 hits, 0.33 expected hits Russia roll dice for 1 field_gun and 1 infantry in Warsaw, round 5 : 1/2 hits, 0.83 expected hits Germany roll dice for 1 infantry in Warsaw, round 5 : 1/1 hits, 0.33 expected hits 1 infantry owned by the Germany and 1 infantry owned by the Russia lost in Warsaw Russia win, taking Warsaw from Germany with 1 field_gun remaining. Battle score for attacker is -2 Casualties for Russia: 1 conscript and 3 infantry Casualties for Germany: 2 infantry and 1 trench Battle in Western Poland Russia attack with 2 conscripts and 1 field_gun Germany defend with 1 trench Russia roll dice for 2 conscripts and 1 field_gun in Western Poland, round 2 : 0/2 hits, 0.67 expected hits Germany roll dice for 1 trench in Western Poland, round 2 : 1/1 hits, 0.17 expected hits 1 conscript owned by the Russia lost in Western Poland Russia roll dice for 1 conscript and 1 field_gun in Western Poland, round 3 : 0/2 hits, 0.67 expected hits Germany roll dice for 1 trench in Western Poland, round 3 : 0/1 hits, 0.17 expected hits Russia roll dice for 1 conscript and 1 field_gun in Western Poland, round 4 : 1/2 hits, 0.67 expected hits Units damaged: 1 trench owned by the Germany Germany roll dice for 1 trench in Western Poland, round 4 : 0/1 hits, 0.17 expected hits Russia roll dice for 1 conscript and 1 field_gun in Western Poland, round 5 : 2/2 hits, 0.67 expected hits Germany roll dice for 1 trench in Western Poland, round 5 : 0/1 hits, 0.17 expected hits 1 trench owned by the Germany lost in Western Poland Russia win, taking Western Poland from Germany with 1 conscript and 1 field_gun remaining. Battle score for attacker is 1 Casualties for Russia: 1 conscript Casualties for Germany: 1 trench Battle in Tiksi Russia attack with 2 conscripts and 17 fighters Communists defend with 1 conscript and 1 infantry Russia roll dice for 2 conscripts and 17 fighters in Tiksi, round 2 : 6/19 hits, 6.00 expected hits Communists roll dice for 1 conscript and 1 infantry in Tiksi, round 2 : 0/2 hits, 0.50 expected hits 1 infantry owned by the Communists and 1 conscript owned by the Communists lost in Tiksi Russia win, taking Tiksi from Communists with 2 conscripts and 17 fighters remaining. Battle score for attacker is 5 Casualties for Communists: 1 conscript and 1 infantry Battle in Galicia Russia attack with 5 conscripts, 1 field_gun, 7 fighters and 3 infantry Austria defend with 1 Factory, 1 aaGun and 1 trench; Germany defend with 6 field_guns and 4 stormtruppens Austria roll AA dice in Galicia : 2/1 hits, 1.17 expected hits 2 fighters owned by the Russia lost in Galicia Russia roll dice for 5 conscripts, 1 field_gun, 5 fighters and 3 infantry in Galicia, round 2 : 3/14 hits, 3.67 expected hits Austria roll dice for 6 field_guns, 4 stormtruppens and 1 trench in Galicia, round 2 : 2/11 hits, 3.50 expected hits 1 stormtruppen owned by the Germany, 2 conscripts owned by the Russia and 1 trench owned by the Austria lost in Galicia Russia roll dice for 3 conscripts, 1 field_gun, 5 fighters and 3 infantry in Galicia, round 3 : 1/12 hits, 3.67 expected hits Austria roll dice for 6 field_guns and 3 stormtruppens in Galicia, round 3 : 4/9 hits, 3.00 expected hits 1 stormtruppen owned by the Germany, 1 infantry owned by the Russia and 3 conscripts owned by the Russia lost in Galicia Russia roll dice for 1 field_gun, 5 fighters and 2 infantry in Galicia, round 4 : 4/8 hits, 2.83 expected hits Austria roll dice for 6 field_guns and 2 stormtruppens in Galicia, round 4 : 4/8 hits, 2.67 expected hits 2 stormtruppens owned by the Germany, 2 field_guns owned by the Germany, 2 fighters owned by the Russia and 2 infantry owned by the Russia lost in Galicia Russia roll dice for 1 field_gun and 3 fighters in Galicia, round 5 : 1/4 hits, 1.50 expected hits Austria roll dice for 4 field_guns in Galicia, round 5 : 1/4 hits, 1.33 expected hits 1 field_gun owned by the Germany and 1 fighter owned by the Russia lost in Galicia Russia roll dice for 1 field_gun and 2 fighters in Galicia, round 6 : 0/3 hits, 1.17 expected hits Austria roll dice for 3 field_guns in Galicia, round 6 : 2/3 hits, 1.00 expected hits 2 fighters owned by the Russia lost in Galicia 1 field_gun owned by the Russia retreated to Belarus Austria win with 3 field_guns remaining. Battle score for attacker is -41 Casualties for Russia: 5 conscripts, 7 fighters and 3 infantry Casualties for Austria: 1 trench Casualties for Germany: 3 field_guns and 4 stormtruppens Battle in Vienna Russia attack with 83 field_guns and 5 heavy_guns Austria defend with 1 Factory, 11 cavalrys, 1 fighter, 32 heavy_guns, 14 infantry, 9 trenchs and 1 zeppelin Russia roll dice for 83 field_guns and 5 heavy_guns in Vienna, round 2 : 38/88 hits, 43.17 expected hits Austria roll dice for 11 cavalrys, 1 fighter, 32 heavy_guns, 14 infantry, 9 trenchs and 1 zeppelin in Vienna, round 2 : 32/68 hits, 35.50 expected hits 11 cavalrys owned by the Austria, 27 field_guns owned by the Russia, 5 heavy_guns owned by the Russia, 9 infantry owned by the Austria and 9 trenchs owned by the Austria lost in Vienna Russia roll dice for 56 field_guns in Vienna, round 3 : 31/56 hits, 28.00 expected hits Austria roll dice for 1 fighter, 32 heavy_guns, 5 infantry and 1 zeppelin in Vienna, round 3 : 27/39 hits, 29.17 expected hits 27 field_guns owned by the Russia, 1 fighter owned by the Austria, 5 infantry owned by the Austria, 1 zeppelin owned by the Austria and 24 heavy_guns owned by the Austria lost in Vienna Russia roll dice for 29 field_guns in Vienna, round 4 : 11/29 hits, 14.50 expected hits Austria roll dice for 8 heavy_guns in Vienna, round 4 : 8/8 hits, 6.67 expected hits 8 field_guns owned by the Russia and 8 heavy_guns owned by the Austria lost in Vienna Russia captures 98PUs while taking Austria capital Russia win, taking Vienna from Austria with 21 field_guns remaining. Battle score for attacker is 23 Casualties for Russia: 62 field_guns and 5 heavy_guns Casualties for Austria: 11 cavalrys, 1 fighter, 32 heavy_guns, 14 infantry, 9 trenchs and 1 zeppelin Non Combat Move - Russia 1 conscript moved from Transylvania to Carpathia 14 heavy_guns moved from Carpathia to Transylvania 12 conscripts, 5 field_guns, 6 heavy_guns and 8 infantry moved from Romania to Transylvania 8 cavalrys moved from Constantinople to Romania 1 conscript moved from Moldavia to Bessarabia 3 cavalrys moved from Kiev to Romania 2 conscripts, 2 field_guns and 2 infantry moved from Lithuania to Eastern Poland 2 cavalrys and 1 field_gun moved from Minsk to Belarus 2 field_guns and 1 infantry moved from St. Petersburg to Sea Zone 9 Gulf of Bothnia 2 field_guns and 1 infantry moved from Sea Zone 9 Gulf of Bothnia to Lithuania 1 conscript, 1 heavy_gun and 1 infantry moved from Vladivostok to Primorsky 2 field_guns moved from Irkutsk to Bratsk 1 heavy_gun moved from Irkutsk to Bratsk 17 fighters moved from Tiksi to Bratsk 3 conscripts and 2 infantry moved from Novosibirsk to Bratsk 6 conscripts moved from Kazakhstan to Novosibirsk 1 infantry moved from Omsk to Novosibirsk 1 conscript moved from Omsk to Novosibirsk 4 conscripts moved from Volgograd to Kazakhstan 2 transports moved from Sea Zone 63 Black Sea to Sea Zone 64 Sea of Azov 3 conscripts moved from Caucasus to Sea Zone 64 Sea of Azov 3 conscripts and 2 transports moved from Sea Zone 64 Sea of Azov to Sea Zone 63 Black Sea 3 conscripts moved from Sea Zone 63 Black Sea to Romania Place Units - Russia 1 conscript, 1 heavy_gun and 1 infantry placed in Vladivostok 2 field_guns and 1 heavy_gun placed in Irkutsk 2 infantry placed in Omsk 3 conscripts and 1 fighter placed in Volgograd 3 field_guns placed in Belarus 1 conscript, 1 field_gun and 1 infantry placed in Kiev 3 cavalrys placed in Minsk 4 cavalrys placed in Constantinople 3 field_guns and 3 infantry placed in Anatolia 2 conscripts, 1 field_gun and 1 infantry placed in Constantinople 3 cavalrys placed in Moscow Russia undo move 6. 1 conscript, 1 field_gun and 1 infantry placed in Kiev 3 conscripts placed in Caucasus Russia undo move 11. 1 cavalry, 1 field_gun and 1 infantry placed in Kiev 1 conscript and 2 field_guns placed in St. Petersburg Activate Technology - Russia Russia activating armour Trigger RussiaT5: buytank added to productionRussia Trigger RussiaS: Russia met a national objective for an additional 1 techTokens; end with 1 techTokens Turn Complete - Russia Russia collect 150 PUs; end with 248 PUs Russia collect 8 PUs from War Bonds; end with 256 PUsCombat Hit Differential Summary :
Germany regular : 2.00 Communists regular : -0.50 Austria AA : 0.83 Austria regular : -2.83 Russia regular : -9.17
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