@MadWaldi Please use this version with a non-com edit:
NML 1914 - Team Game #3
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Well just unspend the 28 IPCs and put them back into your cash account. We did not even spend money on itas turn expecting for russia to get it right after
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Is it churlish to worry about this when the Entente are so close to victory?
Perhaps not. Either Austria should not have been able to spend the money. @redrum describes this as a bug and I guess that everyone except him was taken by surprise?
Or even if we by some strange logic decided that Austria should have the money, then Italy would have spent everything it could rather than banked it, meaning we need to make some edits.
However, if the CPs disagree I guess we should be sporting about it. @redrum is on our side and was party to the plan intending to pass the money to Russia via Vienna’s bank, so we have no excuse for not knowing. If only he had told us!
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@private-panic Well Ron could not have known that france planned to leave not one behind
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@elrood Nor did he tell us of the need to do so Seb. But I would hope that the CPs will have a chat and make a sensible decision. We should be willing to be sporting. I am certain that they will also be willing to be so. :slightly_smiling_face:
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@private-panic I know what you mean, but a bug is a bug is a bug. And should not be exploited. Only because your team is winning you will not let the offside, or hand play slide to be a good sport, would you?
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@elrood My last reply specifically addresses your point I think Seb. We now need to give the CPs a chance to have a chat.
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@private-panic ah I see… soo in contemporary words: “this is not 'nam! There are rules!”
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This situation is not a bug. When a power captures a territory, it’s stated economic income value is added to the captor’s national production level. This income is routinely collected every turn by whomever controls that territory. It’s essentially an income or property tax.
When a capital is captured, its stated territory income is treated the same way. However, in addition, it’s treasury is raided, and per page 21 of the rulebook for Europe 1940 Second Edition, the unspent IPC’s are “immediately” transferred.
This one time income transfer is not the same as routine economic income, and therefore, one should not automatically assume it be treated the same way. If a defender had been left in the capital, the conquest and transfer of the treasury would not have occurred prior to the purchase phase. Since conquest occurred during combat movement phase, the treatment is open to interpretation. One can’t assume the intentions of the authors, just because the rulebook doesn’t explicitly address this unusual circumstance.
I choose to interpret it as it stands. Our particular situation is one of a kind. The more common reason to leave a defender in the capital is to prevent the capturing power from building immediately, rather than from losing the treasury income completely.
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Dawg, its your turn.
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Sorry, to clarify, I was just pointing out that this is a known issue with having combat move before purchase which NML and other TripleA maps do instead of the standard purchase at the start. This game is honestly way over at this point so no need to edit anything and generally we play by how TripleA enforces it unless specified otherwise in the rules.
@FMErwinRommel So NML is primarily based on AA-50 not Global ruleset. That being said the issue is due to the combat move being before purchase phase so none of the official A&A rulesets will address it. The motivation behind doing combat move first in many large TripleA maps is to make purchase easier so you can decide what you are going to attack to better plan your purchase but the goal wasn’t to impact any of the default rules (capital capture was essentially a side effect). While the NML rules don’t list this, the WaW rules (which are fairly similar to NML) actually specify the differences including this one due to the changed phase order and recommend leaving a cheap unit to avoid the issue:
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@redrum Where can the rules for WAW be found? I looked but saw none
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@redrum Okay then - if that’s the rules then let’s get on …
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@private-panic said in NML 1914 - Team Game #3:
@redrum Okay then - if that’s the rules then let’s get on …
Not sure are all on the same page. I asked for the WAW rules, because I belief that screenshot from Redrum is out of context, at least it contradicts what he says above.
I expect the rules displayed there to be in a context of: “stuff that is not working as it should be, due to the engine limitations” as opposed to “this is how this works”
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@elrood I understand your frustration Seb, but @redrum is the expert on this game and I am happy to be guided by him. If he had told us in advance you would have left an infantry there and carried on, but he didn’t. From that perspective the error is on our side and the CPs should not suffer because of that. Let’s just get on and win this game and then start another in good spirits. :clown_face:
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- I am not frustrated
- CP are not suffering because of that rule. Dawg and I are suffering, because for 24 turns we are on the decline, trying to hold it together while having actually no options to draw from instead of just stacking up our defending stacks.
- I know you and redrum are having the times of our lives by waltzing through CP defenses now, and you might feel gracious enough to let it slide, but that Rome move, was THE only excitement I got from France’s participation in the war. To see it taken away from me by some engine bug, feels weird.
- is not even a small victory for Italy/France, but a saving grace move in inevitable loss (of Rome).
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- I’d like to see the rules, to be certain if it is really acknowledged as a bug in that game due to engine limitations
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@redrum: Thanks for the background and WAW documentation.
@elrood: You did a good job of helping Dawg delay the conquest of Italy, while still defending Paris. The southern French army had a strong offense that forced me to be more defensive.
The difference between a one-time raid of the treasury is not akin to routine economic income and thus one should not assume it requires equal treatment.
Dawg got his Arabs back and you are getting your Serbs back. That should be enough satisfaction for one mortal. -
@elrood If you launch World At War and go to the notes tab on the right, you can see all the rules. World At War is much more polished than NML so the notes are more thorough and touch on more of the edge cases like this.
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