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No you dont, because they ship from the medd, and italy controls the medd for the most part, plus England didn’t use submarine warfare and didnt have the last great wars experience where it was a focal point to attack Germany, rather they attacked Germany by SBR. Also, if they occupied Brazil thats not a good argument, because Germany has the ability to park subs off the island of England, while UK does not have the ability to park subs around nazi controlled Europe, Africa and asia.
as mentioned, Germany’s submarines expertise can be model with an NA
convoy raiding rule is about naval units in general
NA’s are assigned randomly, so if Germany does not get it, then its a huge deal because submarine warfare was Germany’s primary way to strike against UK. If Italy uses the rule where they capture Gibrater/ Malta and gains the ability to leave the medd, then they should have a chance as well.
The historical accuracy of a strong German submarine campaign MUST be in every version of AARHE, because its a palpable aspect of the war that we need to model.
naval blockade affects everybody
when there is an obvious naval blockade of Med Sea by Allies, its totally unrealistic for Berlin to receive Africa income via Med Sea
my convoy system deals with it all and we do not require addition naval blockade rules
Naval blockade did not effect Germany. It did in ww1, but not in ww2. Naval blockade did not effect Italy inspite of her colonies. In both cases it could not be effective because they are not ISLANDS, and as usual your not looking at the DESTINATION of the raw war making materials. Please consider this.
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Your looking at the location of where the money is coming from, Im looking at the destination of where the money is flowing.
actually my system looks at both source and destination, considers where we are building or raising infantry, this is the IPC path idea
your nation specific system only considers where the capital is and do not consider actual production, and the actual rule do not look at neither source nor destination
The reality is the production in large part centered in the HOST country, then shipped back to the colony for deployment.
Exceptions: Canada, Australia…. In India infantry were trained by British and equipment sent from england and the boat loads of men were shipped to england and Egypt to fight Germany. Thats how it works.
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Ok fine, UK controls Canada, Canada ships resources to England which is fighting Germany, England is an Island economy and needs to import nearly everything to win the war, Germany has subs…
NOW IS THIS CLEAR ENOUGH???
I said “territory control and which unit in which sea zone” but you still remain philosophical
like give me a game example
here is one for your system
Allies control Altantic and North Sea (sz7, sz6) and Med Sea (sz 13, 14, 15)
Germany holds Africa (from Algeria to South Africa)
oh, Germany performed different to history, exposing themselves to convoy raid, what happens in the two systems?
in your system, you continue to let the Africa income (11 IPC) be used to build units at Berlin…too bad…we don’t consider players would perform different to history
Ok fine, now heres what would happen: Uk has not long range submarines nor would develop this technology for a few years, nor had any experience conducting a major submarine campaign, If they have all sorts of money to waste on submarines , while Germany controls the entire continent of Africa, then UK is being run into the ground by poor leadership. They need to make transports and land men to counter this. So the short of it is UK wont be fighting Germany like this if what Germany did and secondly, they dint have the capability historically.
In real games the only thing we are modeling is the fact that Germany and possibly italy got a few ships to escape in the Atlantic or subs are running loose to interfere with British shipping…. this is to offset the Lend Lease that is beefing up the Soviets by way of sea, and the fact that the ISLAND economy of UK needs to ship goods to survive. So to model these we give Germany and possibly latter Italy the ability to interdict the shipping… What your doing is not historical, but application of a universal rule to equally apply. The problem with this is that that did not happen historically.
Instead of sea path which has to be traced, consider each ocean separately…
1)Atlantic, 2)Meddeterean, 3)Indian Oceans 4) Pacific Ocean…
Each German sub or naval unit in 1-3 costs either UK or lend lease ( German player choice) 1 IPC
Each Italian sub in 2 costs UK 1 IPC, if Italy takes Gibrater, then its subs and ships can now take from 1-2 from UK
Each Uk sub in 2 costs Italy 1 IPC
Each American sub in 4 takes 1 IPC from Japan but must be adjacent to the Island where the IPC is coming from not in excess of the printed IPC value, ( so you cant just park 10 subs off of Japanese controlled New guinea and take 10 IPC)
Each Japanese sub in 4 will also have the same capabilities to USA.
Now heres a questionable idea: allow UK “surface warships only” perform this only against enemy controlled Islands in 1-4. An island is not africa, but can be German occupied South America, North America, or Japanese controlled Australia.
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[uqote]Germany damaged Allied shipping more than US damaged Japanese shipping
but Germany put most naval resources into submarines
WOW your starting to see my point…. now we just need to model only this aspect of what was possible and your universal idea is trash can fodder.
you didn’t get what I meant
as in, US can have better sucess if they put more of the naval budget in submarines like Germany did
Yes but only against Japan which has an ISLAND ECONOMY. It wont work against Germany. They will laugh at you in the Reich Chancellery.
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Yes everything goes? you mean England is not not an Island?
I only said anything goes once the game starts
as in the situation can change away from the game setup situation
its that simple, nation specific ideas won’t remain realistic in all games
They need to be in a historical game. IN a game like Attack! thats like checkers. In a game about world war two the British and Japanese were island economies and they must be treated differently with respect to how income can be destroyed on the high seas. Thats historical, but taking income off of Germany by submarine warfare makes no sence.
This is my proposal.
IPC to be spent must have a path* from the original territory to the Industrial Complex or Victory City.
IPC to be saved must have a path* from the original territory to your capital.
This also applies to lend-lease. IPC that are not spent and not saved are forfeited.
A path is chain of territories your land units may go through and/or sea zones.
Each hostile naval unit (except Transport) on a path* [see Spending or Saving IPC] destroys 1 IPC. Damage is applied to IPC of the path.
Ok heres mine:
For the Island economies of England and Japan income is considered to flow from the colonies or conquests of these nations to the host nation of England or Japan. In either case each enemy submarine and or ship located between these points can cost the owning player 1 IPC up to the limit of the total value of each “blockaded” territory. The only way to protect this from happening is to sunk the enemy ships or prevent them from leaving home waters by naval blockade.
Example: Germany has a sub in the Atlantic so potentially income flowing from British colonies to UK can be reduced by 1 ipc, The limit would equal the total number of subs posted from these areas. however Income from british controlled territories in Asia would require a German sub in the Indian ocean.
The American player can post a sub or ship in between the Japanese controlled island of new guinea and Japan. but the total that can be lost is equal by the total value of IPC that the island is worth.
And heres another idea: Take the total number of subs “at large” (these are subs in open waters - not baltic or medd)
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Axis European players look up a chart roll a die, and index IPC lost, the more subs you got the more potentially you kill, and the owner of the sub decides if its lend lease or income from uk or usa.
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The American player also does this but only counts subs in the pacific
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The Allies then takes up his ASW units (DD and CA) indexes a chart , rolls a die, and thats the number of subs that are lost that turn
