Artillery

Karvajo,

Welcome to the A&A.org forums. You are in luck, I’ve already done the work to figure out how to add Arty to 1941. Allow me to regale you:

While I’m no expert, if I were going to add artillery units from 40 or 42 to my copy of 41, this is how I would do it.

First, use the pieces and rules from 42. Here are the stats for artillery:
@Axis:

Artillery
Cost 4
Attack 2*
Defense 2
Move 1

Supports Infantry: When an infantry attacks along with an artillery, the infantry’s attack increases to 2. Each infantry must be matched one-for-one with a supporting artillery unit. Artillery does not support infantry on defense.

Also, note in the rules section for infantry:
@Axis:

Infantry
Cost 3
Attack 1 (2 when supported by artillery)*
Defense 2
Move 1

Supported by Artillery: When an infantry attacks along with an artillery, the infantry’s attack increases to 2. Each infantry must be matched one-for-one with a supporting artillery unit. If your infantry outnumber your artillery, the excess infantry units still have an attack of 1. For example, if you attack with two artillery and five infantry, two of your infantry have an attack of 2 and the rest have an attack of 1. Infantry are not supported by artillery on defense.

Finally, I would change the initial setup for 1941 to reflect the presence of artillery in armies already on the board. I would think that changing every 3rd infantry in a territory to artillery would be a decent start. If I did that, I would change the setup in some territories and leave the rest alone. The changed territories would reflect the following setup:

Russia: 4 infantry, 2 artillery, 1 tank, 1 fighter*
Archangel: 2 infantry, 1 artillery
Karelia: 2 infantry, 1 artillery
Caucasus: 2 infantry, 1 artillery, 1 tank
Siberia: 2 infantry, 1 artillery

Germany: 2 infantry, 1 artillery, 1 fighter, 1 bomber
Eastern Europe: 3 infantry, 1 artillery, 2 tanks
Ukraine: 2 infantry, 1 artillery, 2 tanks
West Russia: 2 infantry, 1 artillery

Japan: 3 infantry, 1 artillery, 1 tank, 1 fighter, 1 bomber

*Note that according to the FAQ put out after the game released, the territory labeled Russia should start with six infantry. If you haven’t read this FAQ, you should, as it made other changes to the setup of the board. If you swap every third infantry for an artillery, you would get four infantry and two artillery, as shown above.

The FAQ for Axis & Allies 1941 can be found here: www.wizards.com/AvalonHill/rules/AA_1941_FAQ.pdf

Also, this would mean that neither the UK nor the US would start with any artillery as their regular setup have no territories with three or more infantry. Either shrug your shoulders or change their setup as you feel appropriate, perhaps as follows:

India: 1 infantry, 1 artillery, 1 fighter
Eastern U.S.: 1 infantry, 1 artillery, 1 tank, 1 fighter, 1 bomber

The above changes should integrate artillery into a game of 1941 fairly well. The Axis would swap 5 infantry for 5 artillery and the Allies would swap 6 or 8 (with optional UK and US artillery swapping) infantry for 6 or 8 (with optional UK and US artillery swapping) artillery for the setup of the game.

My 2 IPC

-M_R

Source: (https://boardgamegeek.com/article/22682014#22682014) Still me, just the BGG me.

-Midnight_Reaper

I think Artillery Prep is kind of already modeled by giving a +1 attack modifier to the Infantry.

Artillery Prep was as much to cause the defenders to “hole up” to let the attacking infantry advance as it was to try to KO key defensive positions.

Just my 2 cents anyway.

These posts from a past thread on AA guns summarized many AAA’s limitations:

@Vance:

I guess the issue is that AA guns are of equal value to fighters, as Fortress said, but only in terms of defense.

Fighters are expensive units, but are often a good buy because they provide defense, offense, and mobility.

AA guns are all defense, only move 1 space in NCM and have no offense at all.

So while its true that a $5 AA gun has a 50/50 shot at taking out a $10 plane (and yes sometimes they get 2 or even 3 planes, including more expensive tacs or bombers), overall you don’t see people building AA guns very often, if ever. A house rule for AA guns getting something extra like antitank capability would add some extra historical flavour to the game.

@allweneedislove:

like ryguy, i also would like to know why aaguns were changed but still suck.
aaguns were a boring unit that no one purchased. 2nd edition did a good job changing them to behave like a regular unit that can have more than one in the same territory and be taken as casualties. however, they are still boring and a bad purchase.
@Fortress:

Why are we trying to fix something that’s not broken? I laid out the math very specifically. Nobody has refuted it. It literally couldn’t be fairer. They are worth exactly what they should be worth. Where’s the case that there is a problem?…

aaguns are broken and should have been fixed with the 2nd edition revision. they are overpriced.

@Fortress:

….That is absolutely perfect. You can’t improve on that. Literally.

i think you are being disingenuous. you are a better player than what your posts in this thread would have readers believe. you do not purchase aaguns yourself as they are the least flexible and cost efficient unit.

your math works with the framework of a single battle with fighters attacking aaguns. thankfully the game is more than just this one type of battle.
like vance states, they are the unit with the least offense, they are the unit with the least mobility, they only fire if planes are attacking them, they are only used in land battles, they are the 2nd most expensive land unit.

@ryguy:

Part of the problem might be that they are so damn immobile when traveling overseas. Why can’t AA guns move during the combat phase? Would it mess the game up completely? If you capture a territory overland, you can always move the AA gun into that territory during the non-combat phase on the same turn so you are accomplishing the same thing. You cant do that via transports however if the transport was involved during the combat phase. Why cant you just unload the damn AA guns with the attacking force? Why not treat AA guns like tanks/mech infantry/artillery in respect to transports? Why not let the AA guns travel with the attacking force overland during the combat phase?

If were talking in real life terms this might seem weird (Im not a buff on military equipment used in WWII) but it makes them more versatile. You can make it a rule that AA guns cant be chosen as casualties when attacking if you wish, but they definitely cannot shoot at planes when attacking. Theyre just along for the ride. This makes it much easier to transport them overseas without having to purchase separate transports for the non-combat phase. I like mixed arms and this might incorporate AA guns into the mix more often for the Allies.

Im not sure if I like the idea of one IPC AA guns with one shot. I would rather see the current AA gun scheme with a value of 3-4 IPCs with the above rule changes about movement perhaps. If theyre valued under infantry they will get used as fodder more than their original purpose and I dont like that. I still find it strange that AA guns can be chosen as casualties first. Was that rule created just because of the UK and Sea Lion?

@WILD:

Yeah I don’t like how AAA guns are just ignored after the first round of battle, and normally are the first casualty (seems like a flaw). Not sure that they should be able to fire one shot each round afterwords though unless you made it that they only fire 2 shots in the opening round, and one shot each round after that. I also agree that attacking planes should have the option to attack AAA guns directly (maybe AAA is taken as a casualty if air units roll a 1?), and/or can retreat after any round if AAA are allowed to continue firing.

WILD BILL provided two interesting abilities to planes which can limit somehow the unbalancing effect of AAA#1 or AAA#2 continuous firing :

1- Any hit from attacking planes could be directly taken on AAA units.
2- All attacking aircraft units can retreat after each combat round while ground units still be part of the battle.

Maybe one or both should be add to the mix to reach an equilibrium point.

@userx:

@Baron:

I would rather prefer to limit them to their role of AA gun but, specialy for Germany, it seems they used a lot their 88mm AAA as antitank gun (El Alamein battle, i.e.).

I like that because you are correct, in Real Live, AA was just high-velocity ammo pointed at the sky, point it at a tank like the Germans did, it became an effective anti-tank.

I like the idea of taking out tank and/or armor for the pre-combat AA roll.

I don’t know if it would be unbalanced but I think I will try this next game

Thank you

I just learned that Germans put their Flak 88 on tracks and plates so it becomes the Tiger (Mark VI) and deliver them for the Battle of Kursk in 1943.
This gun seems quite an invention.

What about giving it the ability to fire first in battle, defender removes casualties, then normal combat begins. Or what about being able to fire from adjacent territory. Also can it be used as AA and land combat at the same time or do you have to designate in defense.

But doing that does not model the capabilities of these units. The game OOB permits the preemptive firing because it is against just air units that are flying over to attack. It is marginally acceptable to allow this, but realistically these are just basic artillery.

Since they were made as a new unit it stands to bring it fully into the fold as a normal combat unit.

To allow preemptive fire every round is too strong for a 5 IPC unit IMO.

Plus this unit needs to be 3-2-5 as the other units took the other values, so the value of a 5 IPC unit must balance out and preemptive is worth more.

Look at it from a theoretical perspective and it’s quite simple.  All those “conventional 150mm howitzers” you’re building for 4 IPCs don’t have the range to retailate against weaponry of cruiser caliber or above.  So they’ll sit there on the coast under bombardment and like it!

If you don’t like it, then your answer is to create a house rule for a coastal defense / bunker fortification that can be built :)

I have been fooling around with a rather simple fortification/blockhaus rule:

limit one per territory
10 IPCs

When attacked via land or by amphibious assault , rolls ONE retaliatory bombardment die at 4 or less.
Roll is made after any incoming bombardment fire from attacking vessels and you take an applicable hits.  Any casualty you inflict is immediately selected and removed from the board by the attacker. The blockhaus DOESN’T roll a defense die in combat from then on.

Additionally, any hits you take during the rest of the battl against infantry or artillery in that territory are negated by saving throw if you roll a 6.

If the territory is captured, the fortification/blockhaus is removed from play.

@lnmajor:

@Fishmoto37:

@SSPanther:

What do you guys out there think about the concept towed artillery, that is mechanized infantry being able to move artillery with it on a 1:1 basis?

We are using this in our current game. Works great! We are using Tigerman’s map along with other house rules. One of the main improvements we are working on is improving the submarine rules. The OOB rules for subs in the 1940G game are weak!

what are you doing with subs

The sub rule we are trying now is 2-1-2 unit as in 1940G OOB but each DD that is declared a sub hunter rolls a die and sinks the sub on a one and locates on a two. Located or detected subs can then be attacked by CAs or additional DDs. If sub survives first round of combat then it defends at one or submerges.

Im not sure what this is about but i think you offer either function for artillery against air or land. On a d6 a one in six chance is still too much… Perhaps roll 2 dice if you get a 2 then a hit is counted. Or if you got 2 artillery then a 2-3 is a hit. This attack would be preemtive. (planes are removed from play). The artillery should then be allowed to participate in normal combat with ground units. the following are some ideas for air combat missions. They are my old versions but they can help you anyway.

Air Interception of Air Units
Defending fighters may intercept and AA guns may fire at moving air units leaving the airspace of the defender’s territory or sea zone. One round of air interception combat occurs in the defender’s territory or sea zone.

Defensive Air Support
During Ground Combat Resolution, defending air units (including bombers) may move to an adjacent territory to participate in the defense of friendly ground units being attacked. Movement of these units takes one full combat round before they can be used. (Example: On round one, the defending player announces that he will dispatch fighters and on round two they are used in combat). Aircraft called up for DAS missions are not committed to fight a minimum number of combat rounds. For example: defensive Air Support was called in on combat round one and ready to fight on round two, but the defender rolled very poorly on his first round and decided to call off DAS and not risk losing his planes. At the end of ground combat resolution, surviving Defensive Air Support (DAS) units must return to their original land territory, if possible.

Combat Air Patrol
During the Non-Combat phase, you may establish Combat Air Patrol (CAP) from any territory to adjacent sea zones. Simply move any air units in range to unoccupied sea zones. Any enemy naval units (except Subs) that move into this sea zone must now stop and engage the CAP and a battle will then be fought. An enemy player can move planes to either engage the CAP, or to fly to islands in the sea zone and fight ground units or support an amphibious assault. During the regular movement phase, all CAP planes must then land on the friendly Islands or Carriers.

Coastal Defense
During Naval Combat Resolution, defending air units (including bombers) may move to an adjacent sea zone to participate in the defense of friendly naval units being attacked, or where defending naval units are conducting combat against enemy naval units that have ended their movement in the defender’s sea zone (including during amphibious assaults). Movement of these units takes one full combat round before they can be used. (Example: On round one, the defending player announces that he will dispatch fighters and on round two they are used in combat). At the end of naval combat resolution, surviving coastal defense air units must return to their original land territory, if possible.
Air units may provide coastal defense even if the land territory they are from is under attack. They may provide coastal defense, defend the land territory, or provide strategic air defense; they may not do more than one. At the end of combat resolution, if the territory a defending air unit flew from is captured, the air unit must fly to the closest friendly territory within its flight range. If no friendly territory is available, the defending air unit is eliminated.

Strategic Bombing
Bombers may perform strategic bombing against enemy ICs within their range. Strategic bombers may be intercepted by defending fighters and attacked by strategic air defense. Each bomber that survives may roll one die; this is the number of IP that the IC is reduced by during the owning country’s next turn. An IC may lose more IP than its printed value.
Fighter Escort
Fighters may accompany moving bombers or naval units as far as their range allows them and participate in air interception combat, but they may only enter two sea zones to the target territory or two sea zones and two sea zones when returning from the target territory. Escorting fighters may escort either naval units or bombers (not both) and may not attack naval units or a territory during the same turn they escort bombers or naval units.

Strategic Air Defense
Directly before strategic bombers roll for damage on an IC, defending fighters and AA guns in the territory may defend against bomber (and their escorts, if any) with one round of combat. Defending AA guns have a first-shot attack against each attacking air unit. The strategic bombers and their escorts can only target defending fighters (and not any ground units). Any surviving bombers may then bomb the IC.