Sub surprise strike and submerge sequence

@RYNO87 said in Defender Sub sneak attack:

Have a question about sneak attack order with a destroyer. Lets say the attacker has 1 sub and a cruiser and defender has a sub and destroyer. I understand that the attacker sub can’t sneak attack (due to the defender destroyer) but would the defender sub get to sneak attack before the attacker gets his combat turn?

Exactly. The defending destroyer cancels the attacking submarine’s surprise strike ability. So the defending submarine gets its surprise strike before.

@shake118118 said in Battleships attacking subs?:

Can battleships attack/defend against subs? My understanding is that subs and destroyers can. If not, can you just bring one sub against a fleet of battleships and continue to roll till you knock out all battleships? Seems wrong. Thanks.

Welcome to the forum @shake118118 . I think Panther may already answered you with his “Yes”, but to expand on that any naval unit can attack/defend against subs. If a sub submerges, which it can do if there is no enemy destroyer present, then that sub is not involved in the battle, so no attack/defend against that sub is relevant. If the sub does not submerge and so is part of a battle then it can be hit by any naval unit.

The exception is planes, which cannot hit a sub unless they are accompanied by a destroyer.

I hope that is clear.

Thanks for the design clarification… appreciate the thoughts during design… I know in the game design business you will always be second guessed, and i’d be happy to toss in a “what about just a simple rule like subs can’t stop passage of units unless its unescorted transports…”  even if it’s just “one warship” which is the same rule you DID put in place for amphibious operations.  Oh well, i’m sure they won’t be putting out an A&A Third Edition rules, Wolfshanze-style!  lolz.  Oh well, that’s what house rules are for.

Thanks again for a great game… I know I might sound a little grumpy, but I always have loved A&A since 1984 when I first started playing, and I really can’t wait to introduce the game to my kids and get back into it again… in the end, my concerns in this thread are minor in the overall picture, and I know i’ll love it now like I did 30 years ago… fingers crossed my kids will feel the same!

Hi Grumphry.
No. If a Sub’s target survives, it can always retaliate.
Submerging is instead of attacking or defending. A Sub cannot attack and submerge in he same round.
It is always worth attacking a lone Carrier with Fighters on board, if the Fighters do not have a safe place to land, as they will go down with the Carrier. The lesson is: always keep a Destroyer with your fleet, if the enemy has a Sub in range.

@Chiclet:

How does it make logical sense that a transport may pass through a seazone by itself unharmed with an enemy sub in that seazone, but that transport cannot ignore a sub when attempting to do an amphib assault by itself?? to me it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense

I don’t know what the exact reasoning behind the rule itself is, but in terms of the real world it does make a certain mount of logical sense.  When a transport ship is travelling across the ocean, in potentially hostile waters, it’s trying as much as possible to avoid being found by an enemy sub.  It keeps radio silence, it maintains a blackout a night, and it makes frequent course changes.  It also helps that it has a whole ocean to lose itself in, though of course this factor is partially neutralized by the fact that the further a ship strays from the known shipping lanes the longer it takes to reach its destination.  By contrast, an amphibious landing – by its very nature – involves attacking a fixed point (whose location immediately becomes known to the enemy when the attacking ships show up and open fire) and maintaining a relatively static position off the shore of that point, which makes it easy for any enemy subs in the area to converge on that position.

@The11HP20:

A torpedo hitting a WWII sub means you now have two halves of a sub. I was in the Army so I might have this next part wrong. I believe half a sub has something less than a 1-in-6 chance of a successful counter attack. I’m basing this assumption off the fact the crew would be a little smaller and the handling characteristics of each half would be somewhat reduced. Especially the fore section.

A WWII submarine broken into two half-submarines would have promptly translated into two (or more) pieces of flooded, corpse-filled wreckage sitting at the bottom of the ocean.  I’d be astonished if a modern sub could keep operating (or even stay afloat) after something as drastic as breaking in two, let alone a WWII sub.  Though a modern sub might have a better chance to survive a torpedo hit, depending on various factors – provided the warhead wasn’t a nuke, obviously.

@mikemikemike said in Submarine surprise attack:

@krieghund said in Submarine surprise attack:

A unit that takes a hit from a Surprise Strike is removed immediately and does not return fire.  The only exceptions are a battleship which is taking its first hit (as it not destroyed) and a sub which also gets a Surprise Strike (as it is firing at the same time).

And an Aircraft Carrier, too.

Carriers do not have two hits in this game.

@tbt_delta:

I believe this is only true if you are performing an amphibious assault.  If you are offloading in a friendly territory (moving in non-combat), then you can ignore enemy subs.

This is correct. The exact text states

…a transport cannot ignore enemy submarines to offload land units for an amphibious assault unless at least one warship belonging to the attacking power is also present in the sea zone at the end of the Combat Move phase.

One additional note: It appears that a transport CAN ignore enemy transports to offload land units during an amphibious assault.