Axis or allies?

My win record is far better as the Axis…

When I began playing the game I thought Allies for sure, but now that I have some experience I think it favors the Axis.

Um…  I am playing quite a few folks on this site (check the games threads, I ahve about a dozen games there)

Most veteran players agree the axis needs a bid to have a 50-50 shot at beating the allies.

I am a beginner who plays other beginners, so don’t listen to me.

hmm,

didn’t see that one coming…
I like playing Axis, and only Axis…
when I submitted my vote, I frowned…
many of you guys do like Allies!!!

Good to hear that :-)
so, I know I will have adversaries in the future  :-P

Axel Allie,

I took the poll to mean which side does the out of the box game favor, in terms of having a better chance to win.  To that I say Allies.  But if the question is which side is more fun to play, for me I’d say Axis.

I think it’s pretty balanced. But still something is itching in me that it favors maybe axis more. For the Allies to win the game has to drag on for a long time, Germany is a tough nut to crack if it can play it’s first 3 turns well. Japan is a monster, hardly can be stopped from gaining 40+ ipc production and then it’s only time when Russia is sinking. Only hope is that UK/USA can come and hold the germans at bay, so soviets can free troops to hold the japans. The games usually wavers in a brink of destruction…

Here is my post where I use the TripleA War Club stats to show that the Axis needs a bid of 8 or 9 to make the game balanced:
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=6699.msg103174#msg103174

While not absolute proof, it’s hard to argue those stats.

out of the box, no bids,
experienced players allies
beginners, axis

the reason is say this is early on the allies need to coordinate with each other, axis coordination needs to come much later in the game

I concur that among beginners the axis has a slight edge even with no bid for exactly the reason you state, the allies need a LOT more coordination to be successful.  For this same reason, the axis may have an edge in a 5 player game as opposed to a 1-on-1 game.  Since the odds are at least one of the three allied players may stray from optimum strategy and throw the coordination out of whack.

I usually play in 5 player games and the advantage is definately Axis.  One of the allies players usually tries a hailmary strategy that costs the team.

I used to believe it was the allies, but after me and my friends have probably played 20-30 games it is clear that an experienced allied play along with a coordinated attack will ultimately overcome the axis.  The reason the allies tend to be disadvantaged is because there is very little room for leeway with them.  If the allies are played to a tee though they will eventually overrun the axis.  The only way that I have found to successfully win with the axis repeatedly is to use japans large economy to obtain jet fighter defense and then support germanys core with 10-15 fighters. From there japan can slowly wilt russia with tanks and troops through 2-3 ICs and germany can usually outlast the allies while russia falls.  From there japan can pump out eight units a turn from moscow and then game over.  There is less coordination with the axis so it is usually easier to pull off a victory for less exp players than with the allies.

You are talking a HECK of a long game if you are going to develop Tech, AND build 3-5 turns worth of FIGs to transfer to Germany, AND build up land forces to smash Russia.

I’d never give you that much time…

You start that kind of power-transfer to Germany, and I will Big-Gulp as the US, UK reinforce Russia, and take Japan’s islands, sink her fleet, and create a wall that Germany can;t breach and a core in Moscow Japan can;t breach… and take Africa from Germany.  Then it is an economic war of attrition, with Japan out of it once she loses her islands…

I didn’t say it was a sure fire way to win everytime, plus you make your idea sound so good on paper but you forget that each of your reactions has a reaction in turn as well. Economically it is going to take a very long time for usa to have a fleet sizeable enough to match japans fleet, seeing as how an axis strategy doesn’t even require it to be taken out of the pacific.  So you are going to let UK reinforce russia which is fine (more pressure off of germany).  By the time this is even an option japan will already have at least 2 mainlaind ICs and the caucaus so if you want to put pressure on japan island hopping it can readily move forces across the board and retake africa if it has been lost by germany.  So I mean we can keep trading IPCs but you forget that if Japan is well established by the time this is even a worry and I will already be making in the mid 40s just from the land I have sucked off of britain/russia.  Plus japan has 5 planes to start with, I have never lost a plane playing with japan.  It is just almost impossible, no one is in any position with defenders or attacker to hit japans airforce (unless they get lucky AA rolls) so realistically I already have 5 usuable planes that I don’t even need on my boats seeing as how no one goes KJF, only KGF.  So that means statistically I really only need 5 more to feel good about germany.  On top of that most tech rolls can be hit with 15-20 ipcs.  I mean we can talk probabilities all day but to think there is any one plan of attack that doesn’t have any retaliations is foolish.  I was just giving an idea of a strategy that has worked for me against a decent player, but 70% of the time a great allied player can beat a great axis player.

OK… I’ll grant all those qualifiers.

I just don;t see anyone lettingh you send 10-15 FIGs to Germany.  Any serious attempt at that invites Island Hopping (and with judicious use of UK’s initial fleet, and with only modest US fleet build in US1, the US is a match fo Japan’s navy… to maintain superiority, Japan has to build navy, meaning no tech rolls and no FIGs to Germany…

Also, Japan is VERY weak on land units to start.  You need a few turns (building IC’s as you stated) just to get Japan viable in Asia with land units.  So your AF move is a mid-game strat to start with… then add in a few turns to execute…

You just usually are not going to ahve that time, even in a straight KGF.

@JamesG:

Axel Allie,

I took the poll to mean which side does the out of the box game favor, in terms of having a better chance to win.  To that I say Allies.  But if the question is which side is more fun to play, for me I’d say Axis.

hmm,

I have to admit:
when I reread the question…
I want to replace my vote for Allies… I think they are favored more than Axis!

The allies really do have the edge, the problem is that the biggest key to allied victory is america.  Often I see the other allies doing too many brash moves that result in the loss of a ton of IPCS or units.  If britain starts shipping troops into Russia and waits for america to trod along with a system of transports, it is pretty much in the bag.