L20 PTV-first game! Surfer(L) vs. AndrewAAGamer(X)

I really enjoyed reading your thoughtful analysis, Andrew and Window.

A couple of things: to your first point, Moscow is actually no further from Germany in PTV than it is G40. In fact all three of the Russia’s factories that are most frequently used in G40 (Ukraine, Novgorod, and Moscow) are the same exact distance from Germany in PTV. It only “seems” further from Germany’s perspective, because if Germany goes directly to Moscow, it has a longer path to take to Leningrand.

The sealion scenario was playtested a couple of times (including with a defensive buy by UK). Initially we added an infantry to the UK to counter the Germany buffs included in the game–namely:

1. Transports cost only 6 now (whereas in G40, 70 PUs got you seven transports. Now they get you 10 transports and two marines)

2. Atlantic Wall NO = +3 PUs

3. Balkans/Crete NO = now worth +3 PUs (instead of +2 PUs)

4. We added one additional mech and one additional infantry to Germany’s starting units.

Notably, these buffs are already countered, somewhat, by the reduced effectiveness of Bombers from 4 attack to 3 attack (which nerfs Germany’s fleet attacks and any eventual invasion of UK), and the reduced ability of German air to penetrate into Russia and Africa, without moving out of position relative to Western Europe.

We again removed the infantry for version 2.0 of PTV because we found that the threat of a buffed Russia was so great as to render Sealion impracticable, even when UK made greedy purchases. Perhaps further play testing will reveal that that change was improvident. Your analysis does make some intuitive sense, but I do think its something that can ultimately only be determined from further playtesting.

A case in point is Adam’s ongoing game with Ksmckay. https://www.axisandallies.org/forums/topic/35364/adam514-axis-vs-ksmckay-allies-pat-to-victory/127?page=6

Some context: This game was the older version of PTV with three British Infantry in UK.

Adam, as Germany, purchased a carrier, marine, and sub on round 1 (an obvious prelude to Sea Lion).

Ksmckay, as UK, responded by purchasing an airbase (for Gibraltar) and a factory (for Egypt). This was an incredibly ballsy purchase after Adam’s fleet-heavy G1 buy.*

On his second purchase, Adam committed 100% to a round 3 Sea Lion (10 transports 2 marines), moved all air in range, and even took Scotland.

Even with UK’s extremely aggressive UK1 buy, Adam’s G1 Fleet purchase, and his 100% commitment to sealion on Round 2, his odds against UK on Round 3 were only 87%.

Removing the infantry from UK was an effort to give Germany better options when UK makes greedy Round 1 purchases.

@regularkid said in L20 PTV-first game! Surfer(L) vs. AndrewAAGamer(X):

A case in point is Adam’s ongoing game with Ksmckay. https://www.axisandallies.org/forums/topic/35364/adam514-axis-vs-ksmckay-allies-pat-to-victory/127?page=6
Some context: This game was the older version of PTV with three British Infantry in UK.

Thank you for proving my points.

ksmckay did not do Taranto. Instead of removing 2 fighters and a bomber for a Taranto attack he added an infantry, AAA gun, fighter and tactical by moving to SZ94. In addition, with the fleet in SZ94 the Axis was unable to block the Canadian reinforcements of another infantry and armor. Basically, ksmckay traded no Taranto for providing no defense of London with the UK1 build.

• Bmb, AAA, 2 infantry, armor, 3 fighter, tactical = 11 units, 23 DFP

• 9 infantry = 9 units, 18 DFP
  So even with MORE in defense than if he had done Taranto and bought 9 infantry for London he still gave Germany an 80% chance of taking London. Therefore, PtV removes Taranto from the game. To conduct Taranto is suicide for the UK.

Notice the 80% battle had a TUV of 10 and the actual TUV was 11 so average dice. Germany was able to perform Sealion and as I predicted Russia was unable to push against Germany. Germany held them at the border and is collecting more money than Russia is.

@WindowWasher said in L20 PTV-first game! Surfer(L) vs. AndrewAAGamer(X):

Yes and No… With proper US pressure applied, I doubt Germany and Italy can afford to do all of this at once…

The key point is “with US pressure applied”. That means that the US cannot focus on the Pacific and in this game Japan is even more of a monster than it is in OOB. In my game with @surfer Japan is collecting $74 and I haven’t taken a single Russian territory nor captured India. Japan is collecting more than the USA. The additional territories in China make China harder to take however they also provide greater income for Japan once captured.

Germany taking London is a game winning move and since anyone can buy a fleet and perform Sealion PtV gives every player a chance to beat a more skilled player by just attacking London. Thus, the only proper defense is to not conduct Taranto and buy defensively for London on UK1.

TripleA Turn Summary: Italians round 7

TripleA Turn Summary for game: WW2 Path to Victory, version: 1.0

Game History

Round: 7

    Purchase Units - Italians
        Italians buy 1 airfield and 1 submarine; Remaining resources: 0 PUs; 

    Combat Move - Italians
        1 armour and 1 mech_infantry moved from Libya to Tunisia
        1 infantry moved from Libya to Tunisia
        1 artillery and 1 infantry moved from Libya to Tobruk
        1 artillery and 1 infantry moved from Libya to Tobruk
        1 bomber moved from Southern Italy to Tobruk
        3 fighters and 2 tactical_bombers moved from Libya to Tunisia

    Combat - Italians
        Battle in Tunisia
            Italians attack with 1 armour, 3 fighters, 1 infantry, 1 mech_infantry and 2 tactical_bombers
            Americans defend with 1 mech_infantry
                Italians roll dice for 1 armour, 3 fighters, 1 infantry, 1 mech_infantry and 2 tactical_bombers in Tunisia, round 2 : 3/8 hits, 3.83 expected hits
                Americans roll dice for 1 mech_infantry in Tunisia, round 2 : 0/1 hits, 0.33 expected hits
                1 mech_infantry owned by the Americans lost in Tunisia
            Italians win, taking Tunisia from Americans with 1 armour, 3 fighters, 1 infantry, 1 mech_infantry and 2 tactical_bombers remaining. Battle score for attacker is 5
            Casualties for Americans: 1 mech_infantry
        Battle in Tobruk
            Italians attack with 2 artilleries, 1 bomber and 2 infantry
            ANZAC defend with 1 infantry
                Italians roll dice for 2 artilleries, 1 bomber and 2 infantry in Tobruk, round 2 : 1/5 hits, 1.83 expected hits
                ANZAC roll dice for 1 infantry in Tobruk, round 2 : 0/1 hits, 0.33 expected hits
                1 infantry owned by the ANZAC lost in Tobruk
            Italians win, taking Tobruk from ANZAC with 2 artilleries, 1 bomber and 2 infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 3
            Casualties for ANZAC: 1 infantry

    Non Combat Move - Italians
        3 fighters moved from Tunisia to Gibraltar
        1 submarine moved from 97 Sea Zone to 93 Sea Zone
        1 fighter moved from Southern Italy to Gibraltar
        2 tactical_bombers moved from Tunisia to Gibraltar
        1 bomber moved from Tobruk to Gibraltar

    Place Units - Italians
        Turning on Edit Mode
        EDIT: Removing units owned by Italians from Gibraltar: 1 fighter and 1 tactical_bomber
        EDIT: Adding units owned by Italians to Southern Italy: 1 fighter and 1 tactical_bomber
        EDIT: Turning off Edit Mode
        1 airfield placed in Libya
        1 submarine placed in 97 Sea Zone

    Turn Complete - Italians
        Italians collect 15 PUs; end with 15 PUs
        Objective Italians 1 Control The Mediterranean: Italians met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 20 PUs
        Objective Italians 2 Roman Empire: Italians met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 25 PUs

Combat Hit Differential Summary :

Italians : -1.67
Americans : -0.33
ANZAC : -0.33

Savegame

@AndrewAAGamer, you make some good points. I would note pretty much all of what you’re saying could be applied equally to Global 1940 and Balanced Mod. The unit setup vis-a-vis sea lion, taranto, etc. is basically the same. In both G40 and Balance Mod, people didn’t take 80% sealions (even though they ‘could’ turn the game if lucky) because most of the times they are disasters. And again, Russia, whose main factories are the same exact distance from Germany in PTV, makes 9 more PUVs on Round 2, and on average 15 PUs more than it would in G40 when at war.

That being said, we definitely do not want to make a 92 stack the only viable opening for UK. Taranto is an important alternative that makes the game more historical, more varied, and more fun.

The cost of Taranto should be that UK loses the fleet in sz 99, not that it exposes itself to a Sea LIon (even with a conservative buy). So that needs to be balanced very carefully. I think we’re close to striking that balance.

Japan is a beast, its true. It has always has been. One change we are likely going to make is to redraw SZ so that it fully envelops Korea (see Feedback Thread for details). This will make it a little more difficult for Japan to deadzone Korea from the south, and open up new threat potential from Russia.

Please don’t hesitate to hit me with any further thoughts and feedback. Its very helpful.

@AndrewAAGamer said in L20 PTV-first game! Surfer(L) vs. AndrewAAGamer(X):

@regularkid said in L20 PTV-first game! Surfer(L) vs. AndrewAAGamer(X):

A case in point is Adam’s ongoing game with Ksmckay. https://www.axisandallies.org/forums/topic/35364/adam514-axis-vs-ksmckay-allies-pat-to-victory/127?page=6
Some context: This game was the older version of PTV with three British Infantry in UK.

Thank you for proving my points.

ksmckay did not do Taranto. Instead of removing 2 fighters and a bomber for a Taranto attack he added an infantry, AAA gun, fighter and tactical by moving to SZ94. In addition, with the fleet in SZ94 the Axis was unable to block the Canadian reinforcements of another infantry and armor. Basically, ksmckay traded no Taranto for providing no defense of London with the UK1 build.

• Bmb, AAA, 2 infantry, armor, 3 fighter, tactical = 11 units, 23 DFP

• 9 infantry = 9 units, 18 DFP
  So even with MORE in defense than if he had done Taranto and bought 9 infantry for London he still gave Germany an 80% chance of taking London. Therefore, PtV removes Taranto from the game. To conduct Taranto is suicide for the UK.

Notice the 80% battle had a TUV of 10 and the actual TUV was 11 so average dice. Germany was able to perform Sealion and as I predicted Russia was unable to push against Germany. Germany held them at the border and is collecting more money than Russia is.

bah, i made some mistakes. Couple fixes and Russia would have been in much better position. I have zero experience with sea lion and so didnt respond quite right with russia, and also new to P2V and so made some strategic errors resulting from that.

hey bro, you got Adam to the point where he thought, albeit momentarily, he might lose. Believe me, that is a huge feet.

feat* .

@regularkid said in L20 PTV-first game! Surfer(L) vs. AndrewAAGamer(X):

hey bro, you got Adam to the point where he thought, albeit momentarily, he might lose. Believe me, that is a huge feet.

ha, thanks. The game will take some time to sort out, don’t make changes too fast, too many new things in it to be sorted out.

@regularkid said in L20 PTV-first game! Surfer(L) vs. AndrewAAGamer(X):

what you’re saying could be applied equally to Global 1940 and Balanced Mod

I agree. However, in OOB there is a HUGE Bid to remove this inadequacy. Any solid Bid placement in OOB includes a fighter for Scotland, a sub for SZ 111 or SZ110 and a sub for SZ98. This saves one of the UK major fleets which makes Sealion much more risky and allows Taranto success for sure. From what I can see very few BM3 players go for Taranto party due, I assume, to that fact that the Bid is under the $22 needed for the 3 units I just specified.

I like this map and the game so far. I understand and appreciate trying to remove any quick game winning moves and make this a long-term money game. Sealion seems to be the weak point from what I am seeing so far. Giving any player better than a 50% plus chance on London is unacceptable in my opinion.

Perhaps one way of fixing it is to add additional infantry to London and remove them from elsewhere on the board? Or make them French, like Larry Harris did, so they are far more defensive minded than offensive minded.

@AndrewAAGamer i see what you mean. aight, i’ve put it on the list of things to consider for version 3. stay tuned.

TripleA Turn Summary: Germans round 8

TripleA Turn Summary for game: WW2 Path to Victory, version: 1.0

Game History

Round: 8

    Research Technology - Germans

    Purchase Units - Germans
        Germans buy 2 artilleries, 3 fighters, 9 infantry and 1 transport; Remaining resources: 0 PUs; 

    Combat Move - Germans
        1 artillery and 1 infantry moved from Western Germany to 115 Sea Zone
        1 artillery, 1 infantry and 1 transport moved from 115 Sea Zone to 93 Sea Zone
        2 infantry moved from Gibraltar to 93 Sea Zone
        1 artillery, 4 fighters and 3 infantry moved from 93 Sea Zone to Morocco
        3 fighters and 3 tactical_bombers moved from Libya to Morocco
        2 infantry moved from Rostov to Northern Caucasus
        2 tactical_bombers moved from Rostov to Northern Caucasus
        1 armour moved from Rostov to Tambov
              Germans take Tambov from Russians
        1 armour moved from Tambov to Rostov
        2 bombers moved from Ukraine to Northern Caucasus

    Combat - Germans
        Battle in Morocco
            Germans attack with 1 artillery, 7 fighters, 3 infantry and 3 tactical_bombers
            British defend with 2 fighters; French defend with 1 fighter and 2 infantry; Americans defend with 2 fighters and 3 infantry
                Germans roll dice for 1 cruiser in Morocco, round 2 : 0/1 hits, 0.50 expected hits
                Germans roll dice for 1 artillery, 7 fighters, 3 infantry and 3 tactical_bombers in Morocco, round 2 : 5/14 hits, 6.50 expected hits
                French roll dice for 5 fighters and 5 infantry in Morocco, round 2 : 4/10 hits, 5.00 expected hits
                1 artillery owned by the Germans, 3 infantry owned by the Germans, 3 infantry owned by the Americans and 2 infantry owned by the French lost in Morocco
                Germans roll dice for 7 fighters and 3 tactical_bombers in Morocco, round 3 : 8/10 hits, 5.50 expected hits
                French roll dice for 5 fighters in Morocco, round 3 : 2/5 hits, 3.33 expected hits
                2 fighters owned by the Germans, 2 fighters owned by the Americans, 1 fighter owned by the French and 2 fighters owned by the British lost in Morocco
            Germans win with 5 fighters and 3 tactical_bombers remaining. Battle score for attacker is 32
            Casualties for Germans: 1 artillery, 2 fighters and 3 infantry
            Casualties for Americans: 2 fighters and 3 infantry
            Casualties for French: 1 fighter and 2 infantry
            Casualties for British: 2 fighters
        Battle in Northern Caucasus
            Germans attack with 2 bombers, 2 infantry and 2 tactical_bombers
            Russians defend with 2 infantry
                Germans roll dice for 2 bombers, 2 infantry and 2 tactical_bombers in Northern Caucasus, round 2 : 3/6 hits, 2.33 expected hits
                Russians roll dice for 2 infantry in Northern Caucasus, round 2 : 1/2 hits, 0.67 expected hits
                2 infantry owned by the Russians and 1 infantry owned by the Germans lost in Northern Caucasus
            Germans win, taking Northern Caucasus from Russians with 2 bombers, 1 infantry and 2 tactical_bombers remaining. Battle score for attacker is 3
            Casualties for Germans: 1 infantry
            Casualties for Russians: 2 infantry

    Non Combat Move - Germans
        2 tactical_bombers moved from Northern Caucasus to Ukraine
        2 bombers moved from Northern Caucasus to Ukraine
        1 artillery and 6 infantry moved from Ukraine to Rostov
        4 fighters moved from Morocco to 93 Sea Zone
        1 fighter and 3 tactical_bombers moved from Morocco to Gibraltar
        2 fighters moved from Western Germany to Leningrad
        1 infantry moved from Leningrad to Novgorod
        1 artillery and 1 infantry moved from Poland to Eastern Poland
        4 transports moved from 118 Sea Zone to 117 Sea Zone
        3 artilleries and 5 infantry moved from Germany to 117 Sea Zone
        3 artilleries, 5 infantry and 4 transports moved from 117 Sea Zone to 118 Sea Zone
        3 artilleries and 5 infantry moved from 118 Sea Zone to Leningrad
        3 artilleries and 4 infantry moved from Leningrad to Northern Belarus
        1 armour moved from Ukraine to Rostov
        2 infantry moved from France to Western Germany

    Place Units - Germans
        1 artillery and 2 infantry placed in Ukraine
        1 transport placed in 115 Sea Zone
        3 fighters placed in Western Germany
        1 artillery and 7 infantry placed in Germany

    Turn Complete - Germans
        Germans collect 58 PUs; end with 58 PUs
        Trigger Germans 7 Atlantic Wall: Germans met a national objective for an additional 3 PUs; end with 61 PUs
        Trigger Germans 5 Swedish Iron Ore: Germans met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 66 PUs
        Objective Germans 2 Control Stalingrad Or Leningrad Or Russia: Germans met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 71 PUs

Combat Hit Differential Summary :

Germans : 1.17
French : -2.33
Russians : 0.33

Savegame