WW2 Path to Victory - Rules Discussion

@cds

I’m referring to the new neutral rules for Global 1940 created by @Charles-de-Gaulle :

https://www.axisandallies.org/forums/topic/28180/should-we-make-better-rules-for-invadable-neutrals-1940?page=1

I’m reviewing all Vichy rules available out there, as I plan to make a unique mod, because I like historical realism and simplicity, with minimized luck of dice, and some “asymmetric balance”.

Some major points I’ve posted elsewhere in the forum:

The main issue for this expansion is how to develop French neutrality, while at the same time providing a bonus to Germany. Apparently ignored by most players, in real life (IRL), Germany economically exploited Vichy, which had to richly sustain 300,000 German troops stationed in Northern France. Therefore, in the game, it only makes total sense that Germany gets the 3 IPCs from Vichy Southern France.

Another related major issue is what to do with French colonies in terms of neutrality/occupation and IPC flows. I agree that the Vichy setup should reflect what happened IRL: North Africa, Syria, and Indochina go to Vichy, while other French colonies stay Free. However, it messes up Italy’s incursions into North Africa (as IRL, Hitler denied French colonies to Italy). I’m not sure yet as to the best approach to subjecting these colonies to invasion, occupation, and who gains IPCs (other than agreeing that Japan has easy access “rights” over Vichy Indochina), and also remote units…

Germany never fought Vichy. IRL, with Operation Torch, Germany simply occupied Vichy in 1942, with no resistance whatsoever. Vichy units were disbanded. That can be also the case in the game. Just remove Vichy units.

The uncertainty surrounding local pre-battles is quite interesting (will Vichy troops welcome or resist Allies in North Africa?..). However, I’d try to minimize dice randomness that is often used to decide some outcome. IRL, Vichy troops (just like Italians) surrendered as soon as seeing enemy superiority: thus, in the game, if Allies send more land + air units than defending Vichy units, then there should be no battle but quick surrender. Or, make it highly unlikely that a battle would ensue (for example, need to roll a 1).

I’m now working on my own house rules, for an expansion (HBG lingo) that is quite realistic, fun yet simple. If anyone is interested, let me know and I’ll be happy to share my rules when ready…

phd_angel@yahoo.com

Chicago, December 2020

Part Five:

Errata & Optional Rules: Discussion

Upon reviewing the rules a bit, naturally the ones that stick out and cause problems are the ones that don’t pertain to RISK’s core combat mechanics.

Indonesia

Let’s say the USSR attacks the Arab League: Indonesia is supposed to stay neutral in this case, but can NATO still influence them, somehow? Does WE have to be the one to do it, or could it be UK? The ‘quick and dirty’ solution would just be to reverse the rule treating Indonesia as a separate entity, and say that the territory sides with NATO, if the Arab League is attacked by the USSR. Since they are aligned with WE, their troops should be replaced with WE (blue) troops, if/when this happens.

An obvious optional rule in this situation might be that Arab League territories join WE but Indonesia joins the UK; chalk this up to representing Singapore, Malaya, etc. or just with the continent of Australia being aligned with UK, in this game.

The alternate solution is to clarify the rule to be “an attack on Indonesia is not treated as an attack on the Arab League, but an attack on the Arab League DOES count as an attack on Indonesia.” I think this probably most closely reflects the intention of the mechanics.

Possibly a better (albeit more complicated) solution would be to allow NATO to use their influence roll towards their affiliated neutral alliance OR towards Indonesia. If they successfully influence Indonesia, they would replace Indonesia’s troops with their own. This treats Indonesia more like a “minor neutral” such as they would be in E&W; the reason I don’t like this is that it creates a new set of rules around a single territory, instead of just conforming to the existing/general rules.

Since the USSR has the option to ATTACK Indonesia, they can always gain the territory that way; this rule would simply address the fact that NATO does not have such a mechanism to gain the territory.
I should probably mention in this space that allowing NATO to use its influence roll to gain Indonesia, would allow for the possibility of the US gaining the territory. This would be an interesting wrinkle, as I’ve often said that in classic E&W the US needs to be able to gain Thailand in the event that the USSR goes nuclear; this would sort of serve to simulate that scenario, of the US needing to use its influence to try and gain a base of operations on mainland Eurasia.

Influence

Since the opening-game balance is presupposed around the OAS being at +1 to US and China being at +1 to the USSR, the obvious optional rule to include would be one not allowing diplomacy until the 2nd round of play. This would reflect the mechanical realities in E&W, of everybody starting the game with no spies in play (barring the USSR spending their “round zero” mobilization cash on spies.)

The rule limiting NATO to influencing only their affiliated neutral could also be changed… Although it might have to be limited to “once you’re already receiving +2 from them” to prevent dogpiling.
The intention of the limitation is to keep the game simple and fast; it’s also meant to avoid some of the pitfalls of E&W’s system, whereby there’s really only one correct choice, so just hammer that option as early and often as possible.

Nukes vs. Capitols

An interesting thing with the mechanic of nuclear weapons being added to a RISK game, is that it creates the possibility of a territory being cleared of armies. Since armies are used to denote territory ownership (serving the function performed by control markers, in A&A-type games) it stands to reason that a territory with no armies on it is controlled by no one. But what if the territory has a capitol on it?

This is an interesting thing, because the existence of a capitol implies ownership of the territory, corresponding to a specific faction, without there being troops in the territory (i.e. which would be the normal way to denote ownership of the territory.)

Obviously, a territory with a city but no armies is not controlled by anyone; this makes targeting cities with nukes more appealing, since it doubles the loss in “income” – similar to how targeting Industrial Complexes with nukes in E&W effectively doubles the reduction in infantry production, on that territory.

So the questions seem to be:

Can you place troops on your capitol, if there are currently no troops there? Do you get credit for “controlling” your capitol, if there are no troops in its territory? Does your capitol allow you to get credit for “controlling” the territory it resides in (including the bonus for a city)?

I think my answers to these would be: yes, maybe, and no (respectively.)

If a nuke wipes all of the armies off of a territory without a capitol, my general assumption was that this works the same as if a nuke in E&W reduced the IPC value of the territory to zero – meaning it cannot produce any infantry. The question then is, do capitols provide some immunity to this? Does not providing this immunity make nuking capitols (exclusively) too powerful in the overall meta? Again, these would have to be born out with more playtesting.

James,

Should propose that in the delta threads!  Great idea!  Would seriously punish a round 12 invasion of Spain (+8 more defending infantry?  EEK!)

@wittmann:

Knp: I agree.

Ditto here!  I hope this really can be a fresh start this year for FMG, for sure, and I too wish I had a boatload of money I could invest.  I did make a modest little order to show my support, though, and to express tangibly that “no hard feelings” on my part.  Just remember, we can forgive a lot, but if you don’t tell us what’s going on for months at a time, we don’t know if we should even risk making orders for “in stock” items, as we might fear the company’s going out of business and can’t fulfill them.  So please, please keep us posted… And just as important, is not more so, keep in touch with Coach!  And please coordinate with him more closely in the future when you’re ready to roll out more new products… (…last I checked we were headed for a situation where we were going to have 3 different companies doing a Tiger I and none doing a Panzer IV, for instance…)

These are those washers in 3/4 that i posted earlier…painted so its easy to identify nation

This map is huge 15 square feet wow I can use my Axis and Allies Miniatures for this game sweet. I wish, I fear I will never have enough planes though  :x

These rules are added on to the rules posted in the post with the maps and country cards
While setting this game up and trying to give it a realistic twist

National Advantages

Most of the advantages posted in the revised rules will work. This list has the not so compatible ones changed.
USSR-
Russian Winter AA-R
Non Aggresion treaty AA-R
Mobile Industry AA-R
Salvage AA-R
Tank Guards regiment-Tanks in the cities of Leningrad, Stalingrad, and Moscow defend on 4’s House rule
Lend Lease AA-R

Great Britain-
Radar AA-R
Joint Strike AA-R
Common Wealth Troops– Common Wealth Industrial complex’s produce 2 free Infantry during your mobilize new units phase Does not count against build limit this includes newly built complexes. Factories in Sydney And Calcutta Are the common wealth
Mid-East Oil  Cairo, Trans Jordia, Syria, Iraq, Iran,Southern Iran, Tehran,Upper Egypt AA-R
French resistance AA-R
Flying boats- Bombers may attack subs  without destroyer present  Bomber attacks on 3 or less. House rule

USA-
Liberty ships-transports now cost 6 IPC’s House rule
Marines AA-P
Mechinized Inf. AA-R
Fast carriers AA-R
Superfortresses AA-R
Lend Lease-- US units,( other then Infantry) May be converted at a I.C. to that country. This Includes ships In a sea zone bordering a Industrail complex. Max of 4 units per turn. House rule

Germany-
U-boat Program- Subs Cost 6 IPC’s House rule
Atlantik Wall- Infantry Defend on 3’s during an Amphibious onto a grey territory house rule excludes Afrika House Rule
Wolf Packs AA-R
V-2 Rockets- Fired from AA, Range 3  fired at Industrail complexes,  Max 1 rocket attack per turn per gun, On roll of 5, or 6, V-2 misses What ever is rolled on the other die, equal amount of IPC loss. House Rule
Panzer Blitz AA-R
Fortress Europe- African spaces don’t get bonus AA-R

Japan- all AA- Revised
Tokyo Expess
Kamikaze Attacks
Lightning Assaults
Dug in Defenders
Banzai Attacks
Kaitan torpedoes-- Kamikaze subs Hit on 4’s, does not need to be next 2 red territory.

Italy- I could use some help here. This is what I was thinking, you really can’t give them a ligitamate Nat’l advantage because the majority of there equipment was crap. Add that to the even crappier training there military overall recieved, backed by their puny production rate, I say give them MORE ships at start of game. Italy did have a rather large Surface fleet, bigger then Germany’s Maybe they get another BB and transport with there fleet. This would be their Nat’l. Advantage.

Tech Tree-
1. Jet Fighters
2. Super Subs
3. Long Range Aircraft
4. Heavy Bombers-- Cost 18 IPC’s Move 6,a4,4-d1, can carry two Paratroopers-- Heavy Airtransports, Cost 7 IPC, move 4 a0-d1 May move two paratroopers or Infantry
5. Combined Bombardment
6. Heavy Tanks  Cost 8 IPC, move 2, 4-4
7. Long Range Artillery- Defending Arty gets Prilimanary bombardment. 1 die per Def. Arty need to roll 1’s to hit. Attacking Artillery that is not performing a combat move may choose to support other units attacking adjoining territories. 1 arty per attacking unit.
A roll of a 1 is a hit  This is also a prliminary bombardment
8. Mechanized Infantry-Tanks may carry 1 Inf
9. Super Carriers- can carry 3 fighters
10*. Industrial Tech. Roll a d6, 1-2 Army 3-4 Navy 5-6*  Airforce IPC reduction in costs. Army- 1 Airforce- 2 Navy- 2 *Battleships -3
11. ParaTroopers/ Air transports-  Paratroopers- Cost 4 IPC, Move 1 attack 2 Defend 2  air transport
Airtransport cost 6 IPC move 4 a0,d1 may carry 1 paratrooper or 1 Inf.
12. Radar- May fire 2 AA that defend on a 2, 2 Die. 1AA = 1 die @ 2, 2AA = 2 Die @ 2, no more then 2 AA may fire from 1 Territory.
*

Other Rules That should be included

Japan gets it’s First Strike As per pacific Rules must be used first turn
Russia Can’t Attack it’s first turn unless attacked first, or maybe Germany gets a surprise attack against only  Russia, like japans
surprise attacks
US control over China be as similar to Pacific rules as you can, this includes builds, Or china can be it’s own country with a 9 IPC Starting income China goes simultanious with US player

Neutral countries British D-day Pieces
Italy Yellow Jap Pieces Revised- Italys Tanks were crappy and small also, and at least they are not fielding Shermans
AA guns- You can Have as many AA guns as you want per territory but gain the benifit of only having one. Only 1 AA gun per territory per turn may fire. This is also true for V-2 Rockets.

If you want utilize your new trucks that came with Battle of the bulge game,
Trucks- Cost 4 IPC’s  move 3 Attack 0 Defend 0  Transport 1 Inf. + 1 Arty or 1 Inf  Can be captured not destroyed If a territory is lost that contains a truck the new owner may immiediatly use the truck as it had not moved and was his at the begining of their turn. Passengers Dismount upon contact with the enemy and defend as normal. Trucks movement ends when something dismounts. Trucks can Load move load and move again

Also this map is perfect if you don’t neccassarily want russia involved right away, kinda like Xeno games world at war.Llots of possibilities with this set up

Russia collects Half their income until  war is declared on them or the 5th turn, then they are automatically at war  Can only attack neutral territories or chimese territories intil they are at war

Now any one got an idea for National Advantage’s for Italy or maybe china?