oysteilo (Allies+9) vs Simon33 (Axis) BM3

simon33

You can’t intentionally crash the fighter.

simon33

Pac rules, p21, 2nd last para:
“You must have a carrier move, remain in place, or be
mobilized (new carriers only) to pick up a fighter or
tactical bomber that would end its noncombat movement in
a sea zone. You can’t deliberately move an air unit out of
range of a potential safe landing space.”

simon33

That’s why I asked what you wanted me to do after Japan’s turn.

oysteilo

i did not understand your question after japans turn

Well, so it is ok to attack a fleet with 1 sub against a bunch of defenders (say 10 destroyers, 10 carriers and 20 fighters) and assume you will win this battle and in nc move in a carrier to land a fighter exactely in this sea zone? This is a potential safe landing space, isnt it? and hence this move is legal, but in real life the fighter does not have a safe landing space

I read the rules this way: you must have a potential safe landing space for the move to be legal

I have that, but it does not say I have to land on that spot. I agree, if there is no potential safe landing landing space, then the move is not legal.

simon33

Ok, but even if the sub dies and CV can’t move to SZ41, the CV and fighter can still move to SZ57 and must do so. As per the rule I quoted.

Now if I had blocked SZ55 you would be under no obligation to attack it providing you attacked SZ42. In that case no NCM would be possible and you could then crash the fighter because you had no choice.

simon33

I’m pretty sure there’s no way you can get that TT without it costing you a CV+ftr.

simon33

Similarly with the SZ43 one.

oysteilo

@simon33 said in oysteilo (Allies+9) vs Simon33 (Axis) BM3:

Ok, but even if the sub dies and CV can’t move to SZ41, the CV and fighter can still move to SZ57 and must do so. As per the rule I quoted.

Now if I had blocked SZ55 you would be under no obligation to attack it providing you attacked SZ42. In that case no NCM would be possible and you could then crash the fighter because you had no choice.

what if you had blocked all sea zones in the same way, then the attack is not legal in any way according to you?, what are the criterias then a 10% win chance or a 90% win chance?

I am not saying you are incorrect. I am just confused. I am requesting a rulig!

@Panther , can you rule this? Please look at the file and conversation from end of japan.

If I attack the transport in sumatra sea sone with a fighter, do I have to move carrier to 57?

alternatively, how does it play out if all of 42, 45 and 55 are massivly blocked for this move?

simon33

Ok, but the rule I quoted doesn’t clear it up for you?

If I had blocked 42, 45 and 55, you could have attacked 41 with a plane only if you attacked either SZ55 or SZ42. Attacking SZ42 if SZ55 is attacked is not needed because the CV doesn’t need to reach SZ41, only SZ57. Similarly if you attack SZ42 and SZ45, your CV can move SZ54->SZ46->SZ45->SZ42 in theory.

Similarly with SZ43. You could attack SZ45 in that scenario because the CV only needs to reach SZ44.

In the scenario in this game, you could expend a sub to attack SZ42 and attack both undefended TTs but it still costs a CV because it has to move to catch one of the planes.

I feel I’ve covered all the scenarios.

simon33

@simon33 said in oysteilo (Allies+9) vs Simon33 (Axis) BM3:

Ok, but the rule I quoted doesn’t clear it up for you?

If I had blocked 42, 45 and 55, you could have attacked 41 with a plane only if you attacked either SZ55 or both SZ42 & SZ45. Attacking SZ42 if SZ55 is attacked is not needed because the CV doesn’t need to reach SZ41, only SZ57. Similarly if you attack SZ42 and SZ45, your CV can move SZ54->SZ46->SZ45->SZ42 in theory.

Similarly with SZ43. You could attack SZ45 in that scenario because the CV only needs to reach SZ44.

In the scenario in this game, you could expend a sub to attack SZ42 and attack both undefended TTs but it still costs a CV because it has to move to catch one of the planes.

I feel I’ve covered all the scenarios.

Slight correction in the bolded bit.

oysteilo

maybe I was a little unclear. (at panther and simon33)

I want to attack the transport in 41 with an american plane from 54 and do not want to sacrifice the carrier. In this scenario the potential possible landing spots are sz 57 and 42 (and some unlikely sea sones, disregard what previously mentioned)

Clear sea sone 42, unlikely in this situation
move carrier to 57 and land there

I am questioning if I have to move my carrier to 57, BECAUSE, assuming all of 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 57 and 58 (potential landing spots) were heavily blocked (like 42) then I think a legel move is to attack 52 with ONE sub and hope for a miracle because the rule says you need a potential landing spot. In any case I feel I have that, but the rule does not say it is illegal to crash a plane if you have a landing spot and choose not to use it… OR?

oysteilo

@oysteilo said in oysteilo (Allies+9) vs Simon33 (Axis) BM3:

I think a legel move is to attack 52 with ONE sub and hope for a miracle because the rule says you need a potential landing spot. In any case I feel I have that, but the rul

its impossible to get everything right

I think a legel move is to attack 42 with ONE sub and hope for a miracle because the rule says you need a potential landing spot. In any case I feel I have that, but the rul

simon33

The rule seems clear to me that you have to move the cv to sz57, regardless of whether sz42 is attacked or not.

@simon33 said in oysteilo (Allies+9) vs Simon33 (Axis) BM3:

Pac rules, p21, 2nd last para:
“You must have a carrier move, remain in place, or be
mobilized (new carriers only) to pick up a fighter or
tactical bomber that would end its noncombat movement in
a sea zone. You can’t deliberately move an air unit out of
range of a potential safe landing space.”

oysteilo

@simon33 said in oysteilo (Allies+9) vs Simon33 (Axis) BM3:

Ok, but even if the sub dies and CV can’t move to SZ41, the CV and fighter can still move to SZ57 and must do so. As per the rule I quoted.

Now if I had blocked SZ55 you would be under no obligation to attack it providing you attacked SZ42. In that case no NCM would be possible and you could then crash the fighter because you had no choice.

I guess this is correct Simon33, but still I would like to have this verified as it puzzles me.

If all sea zones are blocked then crashing the plane is OK, because you lost the battle where the carrier was supposed to move and hence the carrier cant move there. This is ok even if you have no realistic chance of winning that battle
In this case there is no need for a sea battle to clear the way for the carrier and hence the fighter has to be picked up

Hmm, what if I had two fighters doing the same thing going in different directions and just one carrier. Can I do that? In this scenario one fighter will have to crash

I guess the quoted rule indicates that the plane must be picked up:

“You must have a carrier move, remain in place, or be
mobilized (new carriers only) to pick up a fighter or
tactical bomber that would end its noncombat movement in
a sea zone. You can’t deliberately move an air unit out of
range of a potential safe landing space.”

Now, English is not my first language so maybe I am missing something here, I dont think this clearly says that you have to pick up the fighter, all it says is, you cant move an air unit out of range if there is no possible landing spot. I have that landing spot. Back to point 1 above, if all zones are blocked with a billion ships and you attack those billion ships with a single sub you have no realistic chance of winning, then I don’t see how you fulfill the quoted paragraph above as you have no carrier move remain in place. And i don’t see how this is any different than just crashing the plane as long as you have a carrier. You simply choose to move the carrier somewhere else

oysteilo

@Krieghund I am asking krieghund as well about this, although I think I know the answer… still could be good to get a rationale for why it is allowed as soon as the zones as blocked

sorry for all the mess and all the wording

Krieghund

It is legal to move a fighter to attack a sea zone as long as it’s possible (no matter how unlikely) that the fighter can be picked up by a carrier afterwards. (One carrier cannot be used to justify attacking two different sea zones, as it cannot be in two places at once.) If the fighter survives and a carrier can move to pick it up (either the original or another one), it must do so. The fighter may only be allowed to crash if the circumstances after all combat is complete make it impossible to pick it up. If more than one fighter has to be picked up, but there is only one carrier available, the owner may choose which fighter to pick up, if a choice is available, but one must be picked up.

Panther

@oysteilo Sorry for being late… any more questions on this issue?

oysteilo

@Panther said in oysteilo (Allies+9) vs Simon33 (Axis) BM3:

@oysteilo Sorry for being late… any more questions on this issue?

Its all good! Thanks to everyone! and simon33 I will move saturday morning europe time

oysteilo

TripleA Turn Summary: UK_Pacific round 3

TripleA Turn Summary for game: World War II Global 1940 Balanced Mod3 with Combat Move First, version: 3.4

Game History

Round: 3

    Combat Move - Americans
        1 infantry moved from Morocco to Algeria
        2 fighters moved from Gibraltar to Algeria
        1 bomber moved from Gibraltar to Algeria

    Purchase Units - Americans
        Americans buy 1 carrier, 1 destroyer, 2 fighters, 2 infantry, 2 submarines and 2 transports; Remaining resources: 3 PUs; 

    Combat - Americans
        Battle in Algeria
            Americans attack with 1 bomber, 2 fighters and 1 infantry
            Neutral_Axis defend with 1 infantry
                Americans roll dice for 1 bomber, 2 fighters and 1 infantry in Algeria, round 2 : 2/4 hits, 1,83 expected hits
                Neutral_Axis roll dice for 1 infantry in Algeria, round 2 : 0/1 hits, 0,33 expected hits
                1 infantry owned by the Neutral_Axis lost in Algeria
            Americans win, taking Algeria from Neutral_Axis with 1 bomber, 2 fighters and 1 infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 3
            Casualties for Neutral_Axis: 1 infantry

    Non Combat Move - Americans
        2 fighters moved from Algeria to 92 Sea Zone
        1 carrier moved from 91 Sea Zone to 92 Sea Zone
        1 cruiser and 2 submarines moved from 91 Sea Zone to 92 Sea Zone
        2 transports moved from 91 Sea Zone to 92 Sea Zone
        1 transport moved from 91 Sea Zone to 88 Sea Zone
        2 infantry moved from French Guiana to 88 Sea Zone
        2 infantry and 1 transport moved from 88 Sea Zone to 92 Sea Zone
        2 infantry moved from 92 Sea Zone to Morocco
        1 aaGun moved from Central United States to 101 Sea Zone
        1 aaGun, 1 destroyer and 1 transport moved from 101 Sea Zone to 91 Sea Zone
        1 aaGun moved from 91 Sea Zone to Gibraltar
        1 bomber moved from Algeria to Gibraltar
        1 bomber moved from Western United States to Queensland
        1 mech_infantry moved from British Columbia to Central United States
        1 armour and 1 infantry moved from Western United States to 10 Sea Zone
        1 armour, 1 carrier, 2 destroyers, 1 infantry, 2 submarines and 1 transport moved from 10 Sea Zone to 26 Sea Zone
        1 armour and 1 infantry moved from 26 Sea Zone to Hawaiian Islands

    Place Units - Americans
        2 fighters and 1 infantry placed in Eastern United States
        1 transport placed in 101 Sea Zone
        1 carrier, 1 submarine and 1 transport placed in 10 Sea Zone
        1 destroyer and 1 submarine placed in 101 Sea Zone
        1 infantry placed in Western United States

    Turn Complete - Americans
        Americans collect 54 PUs; end with 57 PUs
        Objective Americans 1 Homeland: Americans met a national objective for an additional 10 PUs; end with 67 PUs
        Objective Americans 8 Pacific Airfields: Americans met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 72 PUs
        Objective Americans 3 Defense Obligations: Americans met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 77 PUs
        Objective Americans 2 Outer Territories: Americans met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 82 PUs

    Combat Move - Chinese
        1 infantry moved from Yunnan to Kwangsi
              Chinese take Kwangsi from Japanese

    Purchase Units - Chinese
        Trigger Chinese Artillery Supplies: Chinese has their production frontier changed to: productionChinese_Burma_Road_Open
        Chinese buy 3 artilleries; Remaining resources: 1 PUs; 

    Combat - Chinese

    Non Combat Move - Chinese
        1 infantry moved from Yunnan to Burma
        5 infantry moved from Yunnan to Szechwan
        4 infantry moved from Yunnan to Szechwan
        1 fighter moved from Shensi to Szechwan
        2 infantry moved from Shensi to Szechwan

    Place Units - Chinese
        3 artilleries placed in Szechwan

    Turn Complete - Chinese
        Chinese collect 10 PUs; end with 11 PUs
        Objective Chinese 1 Burma Road: Chinese met a national objective for an additional 3 PUs; end with 14 PUs

    Combat Move - British
        1 infantry moved from Yunnan to Shan State
              UK_Pacific take Shan State from Japanese

    Purchase Units - British
        British buy 1 armour, 1 artillery, 1 fighter, 2 infantry and 1 transport; Remaining resources: 0 PUs; 

    Purchase Units - UK_Pacific
        UK_Pacific buy 1 artillery and 3 infantry; Remaining resources: 0 PUs; 

    Combat - British

    Non Combat Move - British
        4 mech_infantrys moved from Yunnan to India
        1 aaGun moved from Yunnan to Szechwan
        2 aaGuns moved from Yunnan to Burma
        1 artillery and 6 infantry moved from Yunnan to Burma
        2 fighters and 1 tactical_bomber moved from Yunnan to India
        2 infantry moved from Persia to 80 Sea Zone
        2 infantry and 1 transport moved from 80 Sea Zone to 39 Sea Zone
        2 infantry moved from 39 Sea Zone to India
        1 bomber moved from Egypt to India
        1 bomber moved from Union of South Africa to India
        1 infantry moved from Rhodesia to Tanganyika Territory
        1 infantry moved from Rhodesia to Belgian Congo
        1 armour and 1 mech_infantry moved from Union of South Africa to Belgian Congo
        1 artillery and 4 infantry moved from Egypt to Trans-Jordan
        1 armour and 1 mech_infantry moved from Egypt to Trans-Jordan
        1 fighter moved from 92 Sea Zone to Egypt
        1 fighter moved from Gibraltar to 92 Sea Zone

    Place Units - British
        1 transport placed in 106 Sea Zone
        1 artillery and 2 infantry placed in Egypt
        1 fighter placed in United Kingdom
        1 armour placed in Union of South Africa

    Turn Complete - British
        British collect 29 PUs; end with 29 PUs
        Trigger British 3 No Enemy Submarines: British met a national objective for an additional 3 PUs; end with 32 PUs

    Place Units - UK_Pacific
        1 artillery and 3 infantry placed in India

    Turn Complete - UK_Pacific
        UK_Pacific collect 7 PUs; end with 7 PUs
        Trigger UK Pacific 4 No Enemy Submarines: UK_Pacific met a national objective for an additional 3 PUs; end with 10 PUs
        Some Units in India change ownership: 1 artillery and 3 infantry

Combat Hit Differential Summary :

Americans : 0,17
Neutral_Axis : -0,33

Savegame

simon33

TripleA Turn Summary: Italians round 3

TripleA Turn Summary for game: World War II Global 1940 Balanced Mod3 with Combat Move First, version: 3.4

Game History

Round: 3

    Politics - Italians
        Italians takes Political Action: Political Action Axis To War With Russians
            Italians succeeds on action: Political Action Axis To War With Russians: Changing Relationship for Italians and Russians from Neutrality to War

    Combat Move - Italians
        1 infantry moved from Romania to Slovakia Hungary
        1 armour moved from Western Germany to Slovakia Hungary
        1 artillery and 1 infantry moved from Romania to Eastern Poland
        1 infantry moved from Tunisia to Algeria
        1 armour, 2 artilleries, 4 infantry and 1 mech_infantry moved from Tunisia to Algeria
        1 fighter moved from Southern Italy to Slovakia Hungary
        1 bomber moved from Southern Italy to Eastern Poland

    Purchase Units - Italians
        Italians buy 1 fighter, 1 infantry and 1 mech_infantry; Remaining resources: 0 PUs; 

    Combat - Italians
        Battle in Algeria
            Italians attack with 1 armour, 2 artilleries, 5 infantry and 1 mech_infantry
            Americans defend with 1 infantry
                Italians roll dice for 1 armour, 2 artilleries, 5 infantry and 1 mech_infantry in Algeria, round 2 : 3/9 hits, 2.50 expected hits
                Americans roll dice for 1 infantry in Algeria, round 2 : 0/1 hits, 0.33 expected hits
                1 infantry owned by the Americans lost in Algeria
            Italians win, taking Algeria from Americans with 1 armour, 2 artilleries, 5 infantry and 1 mech_infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 3
            Casualties for Americans: 1 infantry
        Battle in Slovakia Hungary
            Italians attack with 1 armour, 1 fighter and 1 infantry
            Russians defend with 1 armour
                Italians roll dice for 1 armour, 1 fighter and 1 infantry in Slovakia Hungary, round 2 : 0/3 hits, 1.17 expected hits
                Russians roll dice for 1 armour in Slovakia Hungary, round 2 : 0/1 hits, 0.50 expected hits
                Italians roll dice for 1 armour, 1 fighter and 1 infantry in Slovakia Hungary, round 3 : 0/3 hits, 1.17 expected hits
                Russians roll dice for 1 armour in Slovakia Hungary, round 3 : 0/1 hits, 0.50 expected hits
                Italians roll dice for 1 armour, 1 fighter and 1 infantry in Slovakia Hungary, round 4 : 1/3 hits, 1.17 expected hits
                Russians roll dice for 1 armour in Slovakia Hungary, round 4 : 1/1 hits, 0.50 expected hits
                1 armour owned by the Russians and 1 infantry owned by the Italians lost in Slovakia Hungary
            Italians win, taking Slovakia Hungary from Russians with 1 armour and 1 fighter remaining. Battle score for attacker is 3
            Casualties for Italians: 1 infantry
            Casualties for Russians: 1 armour
        Battle in Eastern Poland
            Italians attack with 1 artillery, 1 bomber and 1 infantry
            Russians defend with 1 infantry
                Italians roll dice for 1 artillery, 1 bomber and 1 infantry in Eastern Poland, round 2 : 2/3 hits, 1.33 expected hits
                Russians roll dice for 1 infantry in Eastern Poland, round 2 : 0/1 hits, 0.33 expected hits
                1 infantry owned by the Russians lost in Eastern Poland
            Italians win, taking Eastern Poland from Russians with 1 artillery, 1 bomber and 1 infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 3
            Casualties for Russians: 1 infantry

    Non Combat Move - Italians
        1 bomber moved from Eastern Poland to Western Germany
        1 fighter moved from Slovakia Hungary to Western Germany
        1 armour moved from Romania to Bessarabia
        2 aaGuns moved from Romania to Bessarabia
        1 mech_infantry moved from Yugoslavia to Bessarabia
        2 fighters moved from Southern Italy to Cyprus
        1 mech_infantry moved from Southern Italy to Yugoslavia

    Place Units - Italians
        1 fighter, 1 infantry and 1 mech_infantry placed in Southern Italy

    Turn Complete - Italians
        Italians collect 18 PUs; end with 18 PUs

Combat Hit Differential Summary :

Italians : -1.33
Americans : -0.33
Russians : -0.83

Savegame

oysteilo (Allies+9) vs Simon33 (Axis) BM3

TripleA Turn Summary: UK_Pacific round 3

TripleA Turn Summary: Italians round 3

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