@TheDude-0 Thanks for excellent reply. Noted and agreed on all points.
Feature request: true random dice
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I have asked the dev team for an additional confirmation/details.
XorShift128+ is the PRNG we use (currently a standard in a variety of environments, including v8). The value is time-seeded every roll, not per-game. In our own internal testing, we found it sufficiently random.
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@JuliusBorisovBeamdog There is some research that has shown weaknesses of the Xorshift128+ generator:
https://arxiv.org/abs/1908.10020
https://arxiv.org/abs/1907.03251
https://lemire.me/blog/2017/09/08/the-xorshift128-random-number-generator-fails-bigcrush/But yes it has been adopted by some pretty highly utilized tools like Javascript 8 though the PRNG they used before was well really bad: https://hackaday.com/2015/12/28/v8-javascript-fixes-horrible-random-number-generator/
I’m not sure it really matters and to some extent you’ll always have people complain about getting screwed by dice no matter what you do.
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djensen Founder 25th ANNIV. TripleA Adminlast edited by djensen Oct 26, 2019, 9:35 AM Oct 26, 2019, 9:27 AM
Um, not sure where @aardvarkpepper is going but I’m with @redrum.
The dice rolls in TripleA using the internal dice have always seemed “natural” a bad roll and a good roll here and there but nothing that doesn’t seem unnatural.
The choice of dice algorithm in AA42O is just bad. I frequently get zero hits in situations where it would be 5-10% of that happening. At this point I’m playing enough games and rolling enough dice that these statistically anomalies should be, just that anomalies.
If the team stands by their PRNG algorithm, then show me my lifetime deviation on dice rolls. I.e., what I rolled vs. what the probability was.
An maybe, I have played enough games that these bad rolls are actually meaningful. So just let me know; it’s also a fun feature to encourage the gamblers fallacy. :rolling_on_the_floor_laughing: “Red just hit on the roullette table 10 times in a row, there’s no chance it will hit agai … damn.”
It would also be cool to see the global expected vs. actual dice results as well.
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@djensen said in Feature request: true random dice:
Um, not sure where @aardvarkpepper is going
Yes all right, I’ve deleted my posts in this thread.
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@aardvarkpepper Aw, you did that to go that far. :cry: I was just a little confused is all.
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@redrum said in Feature request: true random dice:
I’m not sure it really matters and to some extent you’ll always have people complain about getting screwed by dice no matter what you do.
Yeah but still, I’ve played several fast solo games, to test out ideas, and a bunch online and my impression is overall positive. I think the best way to overcome is to show users where they stand in terms of rolls. How many and how far outside of the average are they.
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I have asked around. We don’t have global statistics on the rolls, unfortunately.
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djensen Founder 25th ANNIV. TripleA Adminlast edited by djensen Nov 9, 2019, 5:33 AM Nov 9, 2019, 5:29 AM
I’ve had it with these dice. 2 rolls 4 tanks each roll, all misses. This is worse than my worse rolls IRL. I’m seriously about to rage quit all my games.
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djensen Founder 25th ANNIV. TripleA Adminlast edited by djensen Nov 9, 2019, 5:36 AM Nov 9, 2019, 5:35 AM
And my opponent roll over 50% on infantry only twice in a row.
Effing seriously HOW MANY 99.5% BATTLES DO I NEED TO LOSE? If I go into 100 battles at 99.5%, over the long term, I SHOULD LOSE ONE FOR EVERY 200.
Okay let’s get to a more significant number, 1000. I should have lost 5 battles at 99.5%. I have not had 1000 battles, I’ve lost at least a dozen of them. There’s something wrong. Even at 2000 or 3000 I’m way ahead of the curve on losses.
It’s not fun if I have to go into every battle at over 99.9%. And even then I’m probably going to lose 10 out of 1000.
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djensen Founder 25th ANNIV. TripleA Adminlast edited by djensen Nov 9, 2019, 5:51 AM Nov 9, 2019, 5:36 AM
NO! I do not accept these hits. (This was the same result twice in a row; actually the previous roll, they got 7 hits).
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djensen Founder 25th ANNIV. TripleA Adminlast edited by djensen Nov 9, 2019, 5:47 AM Nov 9, 2019, 5:46 AM
- Some monitoring needs to be put into place for dice rolls.
- The PRNG algorithm needs to be updated to a less problematic one.
I hypothesize that you’re losing players from repeated bad luck. Maybe the number is low but without monitoring, there’s no way to know. Heck, I run this site and I’m probably going to take a long break from playing after this.
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@djensen Or you could play TripleA instead :)
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djensen Founder 25th ANNIV. TripleA Adminlast edited by djensen Nov 9, 2019, 5:55 AM Nov 9, 2019, 5:49 AM
@redrum Yes, I could do that. I don’t really want to play Global. I would like some Anniversary games though.
And when I do play TripleA, internal dice roller FTW.
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@djensen We agree, it sucks when you get hit like that, but thats what chance does. We’re trying to emulate the same idea of random chance in the board game that also relies on random chance as well as strategy. Axis & Allies is not a game about pure strategy. Chance plays enough of a roll that its more about hedging your bets and strategizing to give yourself the best chance. But its still just that: chance.
It always evens itself in the end. We noticed a concern being raised, we came out and addressed the concern with the dice RNG with the exact methodology we’re using for the dice.
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We all know this is a game of chance. We all know that the dice can “turn on you.” All of us here have actually played the board game IRL dozens to hundreds of times (the same is not true of a majority of the Beamdog team; Trent is one exception). We know what bad rolls look like. We’ve rolled 15 physical dice and got one hit.
We even know that we can have unreasonable opinions about PRNG and start to become overly sensitive to results.
As @redrum has pointed out, not all PRNG are created equal and if Beamdog is using the problematic algorithm, why continue? If users are complaining why not be more transparent. TripleA has features to address this showing how well or poorly you rolled compared to average. (Now why would they do that? :thinking_face:)
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djensen Founder 25th ANNIV. TripleA Adminlast edited by djensen Nov 9, 2019, 7:37 PM Nov 9, 2019, 7:36 PM
The other thing, which I think you might already know. People sometimes come here to vent as a form of therapy after being traumatized by dice. :wink:
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Go here to complain about dice: https://www.axisandallies.org/forums/topic/34180/prng-dice-support-group-and-ranting
Please keep this thread and others for constructive, actionable feedback and ideas. That includes me.
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djensen Founder 25th ANNIV. TripleA Adminlast edited by djensen Nov 17, 2019, 8:15 PM Nov 17, 2019, 8:14 PM
I put in a support request to implement Mersenne Twister.
There also should be some dice testing in place. A&A players are super sensitive to dice rolls. You don’t want churn because people believe the PRNG to be bad; you need to prove it to them it’s not.
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