I am trying to figure out a way that this might be possible for Germany to accomplish, even if they completely abandon the eastern front and Africa. Anyone have any ideas?
I presume you are referring to the 1941 version of A&A.
Looks to be extremely difficult.
Buying an AC G1 and then a TR in G2 will still be far from able to succeed with a Sea Lion operation.
In any case I think Germany should smash most of the British Navy in G1. Saving the BS might make a TR buy possible already in G1, but the Brits can attack that fleet with a sub and two planes, likely sinking the lot.
Meanwhile the German income will start to decline when Russia can go offensive.
No, just sounds like a plain bad idea to me. Crush Russia first, then focus west.
That’s what I figured, even if the Italian fleet came up to join with the German fleet, and Germany built a Bomber a turn to SBR the UK…I still don’t see how they could conquer.
I figured I’d ask the strategists on here to see if anyone had a creative way to do it.
Sorry, I wasn’t paying attention to which thread this was. Got the impression that it was A&A 1941, but it is the 50th Anniversary version. I haven’t played it, but was reasoning from the mini-version of 1941.
Perhaps someone else has a proper opinion. Would guess that Sea Lion is more possible in this version.
@Xlome_00 said in Operation Sea Lion - Is it possible for 1941?:
That’s what I figured, even if the Italian fleet came up to join with the German fleet, and Germany built a Bomber a turn to SBR the UK…I still don’t see how they could conquer.
I figured I’d ask the strategists on here to see if anyone had a creative way to do it.
Max german pressure Sea Lion on G2:
{Assuming a C/V and 2 transport purchase (need something to protect your Baltic sea navy against the UK 2 ftr & bomber)}
3 inf, 3 tank (3 transports worth), Cruiser offshore, 4 ftrs (avoid losing any during G1 attacks), bmr
11 units.
If UK went strictly defensive, they could buy UK1: 4 inf, 2 tank, 2 ftr =42/43
adding to what is already in UK (and assuming no UK transports survived the G1 attacks), yields:
6 inf, art, 3 tank, 4 ftrs, bmr, AAA = 14 units
UK alone can withstand a G2 sea lion
USA could add inf,art, ftr, 2 bmrs if needed.
An all out Sea Lion is very hard to achieve, mainly because UK can drop 8 units on their buy once they see it coming.
I think that’s a good attempt like you said, but doesn’t seem possible against a moderately experienced UK player.
Almost feels like Sea Lion can only occur mid or late game when/if the UK player is occupied trying to take Norway/Finalnd/Karelia or securing Africa. Perhaps the best bet is to add a ship to your navy every 1-2 turns to prepare for a possible attempt at Sea Lion late in game…
The 1941 setup is really busted. Couldn’t understand why the tournament bids and game seemed so even–its because they’re using the 1942 setup (bid +/- 6 about 50/50)
The UK can buy 4 fighters on turn 1–they’d have to make some pretty big mistakes to lose either london or moscow…we got to a 20+ bid for Axis (still a complete blowout for the allies with 8-9 german planes on the board ie dark skies) and then gave up and went back to other versions and setups
@taamvan said in Operation Sea Lion - Is it possible for 1941?:
The 1941 setup is really busted. …we got to a 20+ bid for Axis (still a complete blowout for the allies with 8-9 german planes on the board ie dark skies) and then gave up and went back to other versions and setups
Sorry, I am confused, Are you saying you have to give the AXIS $20 IPC’s to have a chance in the 1941 bid set-up?
@axis_roll Yes sir, Even with 20 they have no chance whatsoever in the left hand (1941) setup The geometry of the AA50 board is 1 turn for UK planes to russia and 1 turn for USA ships to UK. Also france is worth 11$ so its quite worth fighting over.
In the other versions its a 3 power dogpile onto Russia but in AA50 1941 its a 3 power dogpile on Germany and because there are plenty of russian infantry and 2 layer of russian territories this is more than enough space time and bodies to ensure that moscow is no cakewalk and germany has only 2-3 pulses of tanks to try and overcome it
5 cost tanks russia buys 6
43 income UK buys 4 fighters
these units are way better than the lesser units in the absence of some alternative or special powers so the choice is too clear and simple
@taamvan said in Operation Sea Lion - Is it possible for 1941?:
@axis_roll Yes sir, Even with 20 they have no chance whatsoever in the left hand (1941) setup The geometry of the AA50 board is 1 turn for UK planes to russia and 1 turn for USA ships to UK. Also france is worth 11$ so its quite worth fighting over.
Hmm. I would LOVE an axis with a bid, let alone 4 tanks worth!
So Germany plays a defensive game in Europe after sinking most of the UK royal navy G1, gets what Africa money it can and lets Japan win the game. Japan also send 2-4 planes to Europe to help.
In the other versions its a 3 power dogpile onto Russia but in AA50 1941 its a 3 power dogpile on Germany and because there are plenty of russian infantry and 2 layer of russian territories this is more than enough space time and bodies to ensure that moscow is no cakewalk and germany has only 2-3 pulses of tanks to try and overcome it
5 cost tanks russia buys 6
43 income UK buys 4 fightersthese units are way better than the lesser units in the absence of some alternative or special powers so the choice is too clear and simple
Are you playing with National Objectives?
I hope not tech because that’s such a crap shoot… at least the out of the box tech rules
@axis_roll said in Operation Sea Lion - Is it possible for 1941?:
@taamvan said in Operation Sea Lion - Is it possible for 1941?:
@axis_roll Yes sir, Even with 20 they have no chance whatsoever in the left hand (1941) setup The geometry of the AA50 board is 1 turn for UK planes to russia and 1 turn for USA ships to UK. Also france is worth 11$ so its quite worth fighting over.
Hmm. I would LOVE an axis with a bid, let alone 4 tanks worth!
So Germany plays a defensive game in Europe after sinking most of the UK royal navy G1, gets what Africa money it can and lets Japan win the game. Japan also send 2-4 planes to Europe to help.
In the other versions its a 3 power dogpile onto Russia but in AA50 1941 its a 3 power dogpile on Germany and because there are plenty of russian infantry and 2 layer of russian territories this is more than enough space time and bodies to ensure that moscow is no cakewalk and germany has only 2-3 pulses of tanks to try and overcome it
5 cost tanks russia buys 6
43 income UK buys 4 fightersthese units are way better than the lesser units in the absence of some alternative or special powers so the choice is too clear and simple
Are you playing with National Objectives?
I hope not tech because that’s such a crap shoot… at least the out of the box tech rules
You want to see my tech chart ? I mean my game is 41 and have a 10 tech table. Not all techs good for some. We have had 16 tech in game and doesn’t unbalance it. At least you get it plus I have additional rules on tech tokens and a spy can steal tech one time in game. Just ideas if your interested in them.
https://www.axisandallies.org/uploads/_imported_attachments/migrated/614631_image3(3).png
We roll for 2 NAs per country for whole game. You can go to just 1 per game. Throw in tech. Nice spice changes to game.
@SS-GEN said in Operation Sea Lion - Is it possible for 1941?:
You want to see my tech chart ? I mean my game is 41 and have a 10 tech table. Not all techs good for some. We have had 16 tech in game and doesn’t unbalance it. At least you get it plus I have additional rules on tech tokens and a spy can steal tech one time in game. Just ideas if your interested in them.
Thank you for your offer. I have found when it comes to tech in any version of A&A, the differences in opinions about tech and how to ‘fix’ them vary greatly. And, might I add, none is more right than any other ‘system’.
Our Chicago rules has it’s own “Tech via a Point System” that we utilize
@axis_roll said in Operation Sea Lion - Is it possible for 1941?:
@SS-GEN said in Operation Sea Lion - Is it possible for 1941?:
You want to see my tech chart ? I mean my game is 41 and have a 10 tech table. Not all techs good for some. We have had 16 tech in game and doesn’t unbalance it. At least you get it plus I have additional rules on tech tokens and a spy can steal tech one time in game. Just ideas if your interested in them.
Thank you for your offer. I have found when it comes to tech in any version of A&A, the differences in opinions about tech and how to ‘fix’ them vary greatly. And, might I add, none is more right than any other ‘system’.
Our Chicago rules has it’s own “Tech via a Point System” that we utilize
Ok. Didn’t know if you had it in your rules. I know about the Chicago Rules. Take care.
Well it’s official. I played someone over the weekend who pulled off Sealion on G1 for A&A Anniversary 1941 setup. I’m stunned.
He used all available aircraft, Cruiser bombardment and a Tank + Infantry on the transport after knocking out my destroyer in SZ 6 with his subs.
He got past the AAA gun, and rolled exceptionally well while I rolled exceptionally bad. It came down to his last tank after sacrificing 2 out 3 of his aircraft as casualties.
So there you have it. It is actually possible.
@Xlome_00 said in Operation Sea Lion - Is it possible for 1941?:
He used all available aircraft, Cruiser bombardment and a Tank + Infantry on the transport after knocking out my destroyer in SZ 6 with his subs.
Sorry to say, but your opponent had made an illegal move.
The cruiser would not be available for an offshore into UK. This is because the cruiser would have to conduct a combat move into SZ6 AFTER the subs have already conducted combat (clearing SZ6). The cruiser can only be involved in clearing SZ6.
I thought you could pick which naval units you want to participate in each battle. So if for instance those subs would’ve NOT taken out the destroyer, than the Sealion invasion using the Cruiser would not have been able to take place…
Is there really a rule where you can’t partition which naval units take part in each phase of the battles?
@Xlome_00 said in Operation Sea Lion - Is it possible for 1941?:
I thought you could pick which naval units you want to participate in each battle. So if for instance those subs would’ve NOT taken out the destroyer, than the Sealion invasion using the Cruiser would not have been able to take place…
Is there really a rule where you can’t partition which naval units take part in each phase of the battles?
I thought I explained the reasoning behind why the cruiser can’t just sit and wait to do his offshore, because he would be moving into a battle after the conduct combat phase has occurred.
If the cruiser goes into SZ6 during combat movement, he is involved in the battle in that Sea Zone because it is occupied with enemy forces. He can not do both, fight the navy in SZ6 AND then offshore.
So a short answer to your question is, no, the navy can’t pick and choose what units fight which battle (ships vs offshore). You enter the SZ, you battle the enemy naval forces, no splitting your attack.
Just checked the rulebook. Looks you are correct. My buddy accidentally cheated.
Well the good thing is that my teammate and I still beat him even after losing the UK on G1, ha!
@Xlome_00 said in Operation Sea Lion - Is it possible for 1941?:
Just checked the rulebook. Looks you are correct. My buddy accidentally cheated.
I am glad you were able to confirm this in the rules. You can then show this to your friend.
My odds calc that I use shows a 13% chance of a G1 sea lion win with the <illegal> cruiser offshore, losing all planes 7% of the time…
Without the cruiser, drops to about 7% win. Losing 3 planes G1 and forgoing many other key targets is not a good G1 plan, IMHO
Well the good thing is that my teammate and I still beat him even after losing the UK on G1, ha!
Funny that you should mention this, because in Revised, you can buy enough tech to have a good chance to get long range on G1, and conduct a sea lion G1. It seemed to us to be too costly for Germany as they would forgo a ground unit buy, and USA (or even UK) could retake UK, while Germany could not conduct another sea lion G2… assuming the russian player had half a brain.
