Classic 2nd edition, CrazyIvan (Allies) vs AcesWild (Axis), RR no bid regular dice, Game 2

CrazyIvan

:skull_and_crossbones:
And Game two ends in a resounding loss for the allies.:relaxed:

The_Good_Captain

It could have just as easily failed but I saw that instead of having 19 troops in Russia, you had 18. That moved the dial of success from 80% to 90%, just enough for me to take the risk. (In fact, I’ve adjusted my basic allied strategy somewhat by stripping a tank from the Middle East venture and adding it to Karelia, reducing the German chance of success to roughly 70%, which IMO is definitely not worth it as the Germans. The Russian deterrent is still quite potent with two tanks in ME.)

Otherwise, the strategy you were using looked both familiar and terrifying so I went for the opportunity that I saw available and it worked out, though I should have lost another tank and plane when taking Russia’s capital, lucky me again.

The_Good_Captain

@CrazyIvan

I recommend using the in game battle calculator as much as possible.

Example: At the beginning of turn 2, it may have been useful for you to notice that I had roughly a 60% chance of success with the forces I could throw at Moscow against the 8 inf and 3 fighters you decided to defend it with. Adding a single one of your Russian tanks would have reduced that to something like 43% and adding two tanks would have made it a 25%. Adding all four would have reduced it to less than 5%.

As for myself, even though I don’t like attacking with just 60% odds, in this case it was a capital and so I don’t care if i lose everything but one tank I’m taking that chance.

esp with how aggressive you were in India, poised roll the Japanese back!

*of course all this would sound meaningless if my attack had failed

CrazyIvan

Heh heh, I agree! I’m not good enough to hold the line it seems. Two games, two crushings, in less than two turns!

You had good rolls (more than probability would suggest) in both German attacks that mattered, but not so good that it was all that big a deal, except that the two battles were won on game-determination territories (Karelia & Russia). At one point, I saw 9 hits out of 12 rolls, and just shook my head. Keeping in mind that 12 bombers attacking @4 = 48/6 = 8 hits!! So, regular dice can tip the scales far in one direction, and no amount of skill or strategy can prevent that. When these battles are in game determining places, all is for naught.

For my own calculations, regular dice prevent any meaningful statistical visualization of how a turn will go. I saw the odds in the calculator, after I made my R1, non-combat moves, but, unless I was willing to mass virtually everything in Karelia, and thus make africa a cakewalk for G1, I didn’t see any other options open to contain Germany.

When I gamed out the standard G1 all in attack, years ago, you get the famous 7-11 + 5-1, and like in real life, the best defense is a strong offense, but RR removes that from the game. Thus, either the Russians are forced to assume a totally passively defensive stance…

My worthy opponent has just posted a turn, back after seeing what new and dastardly deeds await me. :)

The_Good_Captain

yes, the dice were hot for the Germans when the actual capital attack occurred, not on the karelia attack. in fact, you brought down two fighters with the AA gun. That one came through almost exactly par for the course.

And to go a step further, on the entirety of turn one, of the 10 dice where you needed a four or less to secure a hit, you did so 9 out of 10 times. All your other columns were more or less on par. I record all the hit stats and will publish them after I rack up more games but would be willing to share them with you if you give me an email to send them to.

Just to clarify, during the battle for Moscow, I agree I had very good luck with the 3 column, but 60% of the time, I would have had the same result, it was just a matter of what was left over and I was ready to burn my entire air force to save one tank and secure that territory.

CrazyIvan

I’m about to get nailed in my other game, I think. Took a risk, and may have to pay for it.

Ok, back to our latest game:

@AcesWild5049 said in Classic 2nd edition, CrazyIvan (Allies) vs AcesWild (Axis), RR no bid regular dice, Game 2:

yes, the dice were hot for the Germans when the actual capital attack occurred, not on the karelia attack. in fact, you brought down two fighters with the AA gun. That one came through almost exactly par for the course.

I noticed the extra fighter loss (two AA hits out of 6) in the Karelia battle, but have to disagree with the assessment that the dice were not ‘hot’ in that battle, as well. I’ll post an analysis via screen shots of the ingame dice rolls. I’m not great at that, so it may be some time before I can get them up and running, and if gribble hits me tonight, I’ll have to respond, so it may not be till tomorrow…heh heh, it’s already tomorrow, lol. That said, even had you suffered bad luck instead of good luck in the Karelia battle, it is almost always going to be a German win, the only question is what they have left, and if the UK can come in and retake.

And to go a step further, on the entirety of turn one, of the 10 dice where you needed a four or less to secure a hit, you did so 9 out of 10 times. All your other columns were more or less on par. I record all the hit stats and will publish them after I rack up more games but would be willing to share them with you if you give me an email to send them to.

I did? :)

Just to clarify, during the battle for Moscow, I agree I had very good luck with the 3 column, but 60% of the time, I would have had the same result, it was just a matter of what was left over and I was ready to burn my entire air force to save one tank and secure that territory.

Oh, I agree. Both the Karelia and Russia battles were likely German wins, but that is what happens when we break the game with the whole RR. If we play without RR, the Germans are not handed a choice of which (freebie) they want to pursue in a particular game, but have to make some hard choices.

I’ve seen Russia be able to be as badly over aggressive that the game ends early on, like ours just did, but I think that there are three areas I would address to try to balance out the game, and those would be a less restrictive RR, LL vs regular dice, and the house rule stuff I’m working on for the naval situation.

Basically, the way I see it is that with the current RR rule, Russia has to turtle up, and the most daring thing they be allowed to do is, (maybe) send some tanks to the middle east, instead of, you know, getting some licks in! :)

Otherwise, can you imagine a 5 player game, where one player is stuck with playing a RR Russia? No one is going to enjoy that experience, with the possible exception of experts, and that is likely as not going to kill the game. If no one wants to play Russia, and folks start to drop out for having to play that way, then the game dies (as it has). Make the RR less restrictive, and more folks will be willing to at least try their hand at Russia, what with only one hand tied behind their back. :)

Anyway, I don’t like to lose (especially in less than two turns), but I do want to work with you towards a fun and balanced version of classic! Hopefully, we can succeed in getting a variation that works for most folks, and brings this great game back into popularity.

I have some work to do from now till tuesday, and so will have to wait till next week to start our game three. What is your playing time calendar looking like next week? :)

The_Good_Captain

You are the first I’ve heard to offer that RR breaks the game in favor of the axis. Without it, the game very nearly is broken in favor of the allies due to the ahistorical R1 Ukraine attack. For the record, I’ve lost as many games as I’ve won as the axis using RR and Avin and DizzKneeLand, who were my regular opponents, both agree and, further, have started to convince me that the axis needs even more help than just RR.

I’m really opposed to the concept of low-luck dice and house rules. I don’t mind playing games of classic with you by any means but it doesn’t sound like a collaboration will bear any fruit.

I think RR pretty much balances the game as of this writing. If the axis need a boost, the adjustments I would make would be adding one German infantry to the Ukraine and removing one soviet infantry from Evenki National Okrug, that’s it. That’s as intense as it would need to get IMO.

CrazyIvan

Anything is possible, of course.

@AcesWild5049 said in Classic 2nd edition, CrazyIvan (Allies) vs AcesWild (Axis), RR no bid regular dice, Game 2:

You are the first I’ve heard to offer that RR breaks the game in favor of the axis.

I should probably clarify that, it doesn’t break the game in favor of the axis, it breaks the game for the Russian player, in a 5 player game.

Without it, the game very nearly is broken in favor of the allies due to the ahistorical R1 Ukraine attack.

I’ll agree, if you have a completely unrestricted Russia, then the game is indeed likely to be short and one sided, so something needs to be done, but does it have to be something that totally removes the Russian players ability to get their licks in? That is what I am saying. Keep the Russians in the game, keep folks playing the game. 2-4 players, not as big a deal, 5 players, and the fellow that draws the short straw is going to find something else to play. :(

You have mentioned a couple times the ahistorical nature of the Russian first turn, but I have a bigger concern, and that is the ahistorical axis conquest of the Mediterranean sea and north Africa. In game terms, yes, we need Germany to have a chance to expand into africa, but does this have to mean a virtually free ride? In the one game I have played so far where this happened, the allies lost 2BB, 2TR, 1SS for just one german sub, and then lost an infantry and tank in egypt for free. I cannot see 2 russian tanks being a threat to egypt in that situation, unless the UK can recapture, and to do that they likely need to forgo killing the German transport/BB. The other issue, at least to my mind, which is after all that of a long time player of the game against people even worse at it than me, is that something needs be done about the allies being able to “shuck-shuck” troops over to europe, and to me, that means trying to develop house rules that, should they prove to be good enough, might just become the next set of ‘optional rules’ for the game. But again, that would require me to be able to get folks playing classic in the first place…

For the record, I’ve lost as many games as I’ve won as the axis using RR and @Avin and @DizzKneeLand, who were my regular opponents, both agree and, further, have started to convince me that the axis needs even more help than just RR.

Keep in mind, my only experience playing classic against someone who knows how to play the game, is the two games I’ve played with you! I played for 30 years, and no one really had their defecation coagulated, and right now, folks won’t even play classic at all, so It’s not like I’m going to be able to playtest my ideas. :(

I have ideas for how to give that more help, but that involves a house rule pertaining to multi-national fleets, and without anyone to work with at playtesting, I cannot tell if my ideas are really going to work out or not. So I guess I would welcome the opportunity to learn how you folks are playing, by playing or at least being able to watch via PBF save game files. Or something. :)

I’m really opposed to the concept of low-luck dice and house rules. I don’t mind playing games of classic with you by any means but it doesn’t sound like a collaboration will bear any fruit.

When I first watched your YouTube video series, I was impressed with the time and effort that you put forth, in explaining things and making your points.
What I hope to do is learn what everyone else already knows about classic, and go from there in making changes that restore the fun and popularity of the game, so folks will want to play it.

For me, a guy that used to be a fairly good amature chess player, back in the day when my health was not affecting my brain, I love the strategy part of strategy games, but like to restrict luck to a minor role, rather than being the central actor of the game.

Then too, there is a difference in playing a game in person, where 12 die rolls ending up in 6 1’s is a kodak moment as opposed to just sitting at the keyboard and shaking your head, lol. In person, playing the game as designed is entertaining, as it’s a social event. Playing online, though, the cold random number generator of fate isn’t as entertaining.

You mentioned that you don’t like LL, but have you played very much with that? In person, classic has the column rolling system, and that works well, but online, the dice servers seem, in my admittedly limited experience, much over prone to shooting down my bombing raids, while never hitting the AI’s bombers.:jack_o_lantern: LL does limit the whole “Lucky shot, Sir!” kind of thing, but some fundamental work would need to be done to fix the game, when the special cases come up, sub first shot, and AA fire.

I think RR pretty much balances the game as of this writing. If the axis need a boost, the adjustments I would make would be adding one German infantry to the Ukraine and removing one soviet infantry from Evenki National Okrug, that’s it. That’s as intense as it would need to get IMO.

I can see what you are saying, and perhaps with more experience playing the game online, and not just solely with the current incarnation of RR, I could provide some interesting ideas that may lead to renewed interest in classic, but any such thing would need to provide new, fresh ideas for balancing things out.

Anyway, I’ve gotten way off topic here, and will be creating game three on Tuesday, June 11th and continue my education on what NOT to do as the allies playing a master axis player @AcesWild5049

The_Good_Captain

@CrazyIvan

Really nice post. Good read.

On the Med and Africa being worse off than the Russian front - Insofar as this game is merely a projection of military clout by the five major powers fighting in WW2, that particular situation approaches unrealistic whereas the situation on the East front IS unrealistic without RR. This is of course, an opinion.

What I would argue is less an opinion is that the Germans have a free ride in Africa. Even with good Axis rolls, generally, I don’t expect to have Germans in Africa after turn 3. I also expect to have lost the continent to the allies until the Japanese get around to it.

On my recommended strategy with the Russian tanks - their primary purpose is as a deterrent, not a cure all. I would be hesitant to use them in any manner beyond retaking India. Otherwise, I generally bring them back. This is somewhat situation dependent but that was the spirit in which I developed the strategy.

On the lack of classic players - I’ll bet you can get someone to play classic with you on this forum, just throw up a request! Otherwise, I’m generally always available.

Misc. - I’m open to house rules only in the most minimally invasive manner for several reasons. First, the more innocuous the change, the more likely the target audience will accept it. Second, there is less need to explain what the changes are and why they were made. Third, I want to retain as much of the original spirit and flavor of the game as possible. For example, the minute changes I spoke of earlier would be published by me using a photo edit software to change the digits on the oob setup cards. I would then make them available for download and title the file something very basic. “AnA classic setup v1.1” or something to that effect.

No, I haven’t played with LL but it seems to me a very “bean counter” way of playing. Like an order of magnitude higher than it already can be. At this time, I’m unwilling to try it, at least until I wrap up my time in Classic AnA.

If you would like to see some games where Russia has a good time with RR, check out either of my games with Avin:
https://www.axisandallies.org/forums/topic/33264/classic-2nd-edition-avin-allies-vs-aceswild-axis-no-bid/27?page=2
this one is really two games in one. The first, the axis get horribly diced and the second I experiment with a G1 Mediterranean build.

But this one is the crowning jewel of a great game using RR and the axis strategy that I advertise:
https://www.axisandallies.org/forums/topic/33336/classic-2nd-edition-avin-allies-vs-aceswild-axis-rr-no-bid-game2/104
it wasn’t clear who would win until about turn 8 or 9 and then just barely, it could have gone either way several times and I nearly conceded at one point.

I agree with you about the column rolling and AAA. And about the sense that rolling dice in person is much more interesting and entertaining in person. I will be submitting a request to the AAA developers to add an option in to allow for it. I really feel this is a subtle but crucial component to this game and I despair when opponents hand be their “order of loss list”. I would and will never do that. I was once asked what my order of loss would be for a big naval battle around japan and that my answer would dictate weather he would attack or not. My response, “You’ll have to find out for yourself.”

Give the enemy nothing…

The_Good_Captain

…he didn’t attack. lol

CrazyIvan

Nice! I’ll be sure to check out those game, as so far I have not lasted even to turn 3.

The_Good_Captain

the common strat he and DizzKneeLand employed is what I call the “unplug and chug” strategy.

you’ll notice that the UK builds no industries and unplugs its forces in the middle of the board with the aim of crushing the med fleet and germans in africa. The allies then “chug” all of their forces toward Germany and smother it, then turn to deal with Japan.

I don’t think its the best way to kill the Axis but it’s competitive.

CrazyIvan

Well, lord knows I need all the help I can get, lol. But like the man said, the only way to get better at a thing, is to keep doing a thing. For game three, I’m thinking some thoughts about what to do differently, but hopefully I can learn from my mistakes and their strategies, and start giving a better account of myself. Even turn 3-4 would be an improvement over currently. :)

The_Good_Captain

TripleA Turn Summary: Russians round 1

TripleA Turn Summary for game: World War II Classic, version: 2.0

Game History

Round: 1

    Purchase Units - Russians
        Russians buy 8 infantry; Remaining resources: 0 PUs; 

    Combat Move - Russians
        5 infantry moved from Caucasus to Ukraine S.S.R.
        1 armour, 1 fighter and 3 infantry moved from Karelia S.S.R. to Ukraine S.S.R.
        2 armour moved from Russia to Ukraine S.S.R.
        1 fighter moved from Russia to Baltic Sea Zone
        1 submarine moved from Karelia Sea Zone to Baltic Sea Zone

    Combat - Russians
        Battle in Baltic Sea Zone
            Russians attack with 1 fighter and 1 submarine
            Germans defend with 1 submarine and 1 transport
                Russians roll dice for 1 submarine in Baltic Sea Zone, round 2 : 0/1 hits, 0.33 expected hits
                Russians roll dice for 1 fighter in Baltic Sea Zone, round 2 : 0/1 hits, 0.50 expected hits
                Germans roll dice for 1 submarine in Baltic Sea Zone, round 2 : 0/1 hits, 0.33 expected hits
                Germans roll dice for 1 transport in Baltic Sea Zone, round 2 : 0/1 hits, 0.17 expected hits
                Russians roll dice for 1 submarine in Baltic Sea Zone, round 3 : 1/1 hits, 0.33 expected hits
                1 transport owned by the Germans lost in Baltic Sea Zone
                Russians roll dice for 1 fighter in Baltic Sea Zone, round 3 : 0/1 hits, 0.50 expected hits
                Germans roll dice for 1 submarine in Baltic Sea Zone, round 3 : 1/1 hits, 0.33 expected hits
                1 submarine owned by the Russians lost in Baltic Sea Zone
                Russians roll dice for 1 fighter in Baltic Sea Zone, round 4 : 1/1 hits, 0.50 expected hits
                1 submarine owned by the Germans lost in Baltic Sea Zone
            Russians win with 1 fighter remaining. Battle score for attacker is 8
            Casualties for Germans: 1 submarine and 1 transport
            Casualties for Russians: 1 submarine
        Battle in Ukraine S.S.R.
            Russians attack with 3 armour, 1 fighter and 8 infantry
            Germans defend with 2 armour, 1 fighter and 3 infantry
                Russians roll dice for 3 armour, 1 fighter and 8 infantry in Ukraine S.S.R., round 2 : 6/12 hits, 3.33 expected hits
                Germans roll dice for 2 armour, 1 fighter and 3 infantry in Ukraine S.S.R., round 2 : 3/6 hits, 2.33 expected hits
                3 infantry owned by the Russians, 3 infantry owned by the Germans, 1 fighter owned by the Germans and 2 armour owned by the Germans lost in Ukraine S.S.R.
            Russians win, taking Ukraine S.S.R. from Germans with 3 armour, 1 fighter and 5 infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 22
            Casualties for Russians: 3 infantry
            Casualties for Germans: 2 armour, 1 fighter and 3 infantry
        Trigger Russians Can Move: Setting movementRestrictionTerritories cleared  for rulesAttachment attached to Russians
        Trigger Russians Can Move: Setting movementRestrictionType to disallowed for rulesAttachment attached to Russians

    Non Combat Move - Russians
        1 fighter moved from Baltic Sea Zone to Karelia S.S.R.
        1 fighter moved from Ukraine S.S.R. to Karelia S.S.R.

    Place Units - Russians
        8 infantry placed in Karelia S.S.R.

    Turn Complete - Russians
        Russians collect 27 PUs; end with 27 PUs

Combat Hit Differential Summary :

Germans : 0.83
Russians : 2.50

Savegame

Classic 2nd edition, CrazyIvan (Allies) vs AcesWild (Axis), RR no bid regular dice, Game 2

TripleA Turn Summary: Russians round 1

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