I like the idea of the infantry and tanks not being able to attack fighters. Thats maybe even better then defending and attacking on a 1. I agree if land control is lost and you only have planes they could defend for 2 rounds.
Oh ok we’ll leave the AA and sort out things by other means.
So lets look into the four boundary cases. Its a tough problem to model.
1 FTR attack 10 ARM
10 ARM attack 1 FTR
1 INF attack 10 FTR
10 FTR attack 1 INF
1 FTR attack 10 ARM
+++ they most likely fight one round and the tanks move off the next round. They are committed for at least one round of death.
10 ARM attack 1 FTR
+++Nothing happens except the fighter is dislodged to another friendly territory in flight range.
1 INF attack 10 FTR
+++Nothing happens except the fighter is dislodged to another friendly territory in flight range.
10 FTR attack 1 INF
+++ fighters kill infantry but dont occupy territory
I don’t know about 10 FTRS Having to leave if 1 inf attacks. Shouldn’t the FTRS have a least one round of combat before retreat?
P.S. I just got a copy of the original A&A! Ya!
As before, the problem is the part jets are forced to retreat.
The model of land control needs fine tuning I think.
It would be weird to make them retreat yet introduce all those new air missions.
OK ill come up with something then to overcome this problem.
The main problem I see with the rules is their complexity! Keep it simple if you want people to play them.
I find the idea of airplanes engaging airplanes wonderful. Very good idea. But a plane attacking another plane should have the edge. You think you can defend on a 4 with a Me-109 on your tail?? I think the one on your tail attacks on a 4 and you defend on a 3…
Now for ground units being unable to hit airplanes? What is that? Even in Battlefield 1942 you can attack a fighter with a jeep-mounted .50!!! Defending ground units should be given a chance to defend themselves against attacking A/U on a roll of 1. I mean ONE DIE for the whole bunch per cycle of combat. Even if you have 5 INF and 5 tanks, the whole bunch gets to roll 1 D6 per attacking ennemy A/U per cyle of combat. That would represent the small arms fire you encounter when strafing and the small caliber AA guns escorting ground units.
Infantry should be able to destroy tanks in defense…don’t you think?
I find the idea of airplanes engaging airplanes wonderful. Very good idea. But a plane attacking another plane should have the edge. You think you can defend on a 4 with a Me-109 on your tail?? I think the one on your tail attacks on a 4 and you defend on a 3…
++++in this sytem planes fight at different modified aerial combat values… attacking planes are at 1-2 defending at 1-3… bombers on either side at 1.
that way the planes dont get chewed up, plus its impossible to destroy that many planes in a short time. The defense gets the advantage because it has a shorter range to engage planes… ala the battle of britian… the defense was more able.
Now for ground units being unable to hit airplanes? What is that? Even in Battlefield 1942 you can attack a fighter with a jeep-mounted .50!!! Defending ground units should be given a chance to defend themselves against attacking A/U on a roll of 1.
+++++ its possible for a .50 to hit a plane but thats in movies and … games… in the war this was not a common thing especially when a fighter = 1,000 planes… their is not realitic way any combination of land forces in the entire war had even destroyed more than 300 planes in this manner… all AA flak batteries combined were responsible for no more than 10% of all combined plane loses in the war… thats why air speriority is most important… during the the bulge campaign i ask you why didnt the German panzer korps just “shoot down” all those allied planes in the air in late december? … Antwort: because they didnt have any air units! and land forces cant do anything againt the air. Look at Iraq 1991 and the battle of the retreating forces back to bagdad… they even had surface to air weapons ( rpg) but no capabilities to do anything against planes… even with modern weapons… it was even worse in WW2.
I mean ONE DIE for the whole bunch per cycle of combat. Even if you have 5 INF and 5 tanks, the whole bunch gets to roll 1 D6 per attacking ennemy A/U per cyle of combat. That would represent the small arms fire you encounter when strafing and the small caliber AA guns escorting ground units.
++++++++++++ok what exactly is the rule? how many dice, what are the results? what are the effects? … the idea is not clear.
Infantry should be able to destroy tanks in defense…don’t you think?
+++++they can but only if their are no defending infantry left and only tanks left… In war tanks fight tanks and have great tank battles… this is no place for infantry to hang around… armor cuts thru infantry like a knife and butter. The only way to stop this is with …tanks so these hits go againt each other… So in a way infantry is still a sponge because it protects enemy infantry from killing your tanks… but in a real way we have solved that problem of “infantry as guinea pigs”
Even in Battlefield 1942 you can attack a fighter with a jeep-mounted .50!!! Defending ground units should be given a chance to defend themselves against attacking A/U…
Yeah I played that game too.
Yes that what I thought first, and then Imperious convinced me.
We are talking a about whole divisions here, in this strategic level (rather than tactical level) boardgame.
A few planes suffer from small arms now and then. But not majority of a division.
Ok, it is true that if we look at it in a very global way, maybe a few planes are gonna be shot down but it’s not representative out of 1000 planes.
in this sytem planes fight at different modified aerial combat values… attacking planes are at 1-2 defending at 1-3… bombers on either side at 1.
I don’t understant the 1-2 or 1-3. Isn’t it 2 or less and 3 or less?
And for the tanks battles, Thats a great idea too. It’s more strategic like that.
I don’t understant the 1-2 or 1-3. Isn’t it 2 or less and 3 or less?
Yes.
And forgive the old man. :-D He is getting mixed up between all those boardgames he created varients for.
I don’t understant the 1-2 or 1-3. Isn’t it 2 or less and 3 or less?
And for the tanks battles, Thats a great idea too. It’s more strategic like that.
IN air combat all attacking fighters fight at 2 or less, all defending fighters are at 3 or less… all other planes are at 1 ( bombers)
yeah definitely don’t want bombers downing lots of fighters
right one is the lowest value that can be assigned so one it is.
So Infantry kills infantry, until there is no more ennemy infantry. Tanks kill tanks, air units kill air units first and then pound ground units without possibility of being fired at. If there are no defending fighters, tanks and planes attack at 4 on a one to one basis.
yeah
and if it was the defender with air supermacy, it would be tank at 3 and fighter at 5?
or does the bonus only go for attacking?
So Infantry kills infantry, until there is no more ennemy infantry. Tanks kill tanks, air units kill air units first and then pound ground units without possibility of being fired at. If there are no defending fighters, tanks and planes attack at 4 on a one to one basis.
In land combat their is a possiblity for any units to be hit… if the infantry hit something the defender can destroy a tank instead of another infantry… only when a tanks hit the hit allocation must go against another tank artillery unit… In this way your tank armies are very important… you must have an advantage in tanks just like in real combat or you get the back door.
If their are no air units left… then air units pound the ground units AS LONG AS YOU HAVE ENGAGED LAND FORCES AND BOTH SIDES DO NOT RETREAT… then air units fight at normal values ( attack at 3). so we change the attack value of planes when they fight other air units and not when engaged in air combat.
@Imperious:
if the infantry hit something the defender can destroy a tank instead of another infantry… only when a tanks hit the hit allocation must go against another tank artillery unit… In this way your tank armies are very important… you must have an advantage in tanks just like in real combat or you get the back door.
INF hits can allocated on any land units.
ARM hits must be allocated on ARM or ART units first.
I wonder if ART should be able to target ARM/ART and lose its ability to give infantry +1 bonus?
NO artillery should keep its bonus, but its hit allocations are against infantry… however, when your tanks score hits the defender CAN allocate artillery as loses instead of tanks. this is the only case where artillery are involved like this.
so its
INF hits on any land units
ARM hits on ARM or ART units first
ART hits on INF first (or is that any land units?)
now, back to air units combating without ground control
any updates Imperious Leader?
A fixed number of turns would be unrealistic, even when defending thus “inactive”.
I sugguest some sorta dice rolling, air units individually forced to retreat, related to number of enemy land units, different values for attacking or defending.
It shall be quite a full solution.
Yes lone attacking air units is covered too. Air power is not unlimited. You don’t have one single air division repelling a sizable army.
air only attack:
Defender rolls a dice for each defending land unit excluding AA in step 5, for every roll of 1 roll another dice. For every roll of 2 or less attacker retreats an air unit.
_On average 18 units/cycles to retreat one air unit. Assuming defender holds at all costs. Rough maths, dead land units not removed, more would be killed in practice.
1 FTR attacks 18 INF……0.5 INF would be killed
1 FTR attacks 9 INF…0.5 + 0.5 INF = 1 INF would be killed
1 FTR attacks 3 INF…0.5 + 0.5 + 0.5 = 1.5 INF would be killed
4 FTR attacks 18 INF…2 + 1.5 + 1 + 0.5 = 4.5 INF would be killed
4 FTR attacks 9 INF…2 + 2 + 1.5 + 1.5 + 1 + 1 etc = ALL INF would be killed_
air only defend:
Attacker rolls a dice for each attacking land unit excluding AA in step 4. For every roll of 1 attacker retreats an air unit.
_On average 6 rolls to retreat one air unit. Assuming attacker pushes at all costs. Rough maths, dead land units not removed, more would be killed in practice.
6 INF attacks 1 FTR……0.66 INF would be killed
3 INF attacks 1 FTR…0.66 + 0.66 INF would be killed
6 INF attacks 2 FTR…1.33 + 0.66 = 2 INF would be killed
6 INF attacks 3 FTR…all INF would be killed
12 INF attacks 3 FTR…3 INF killed_
