yes right the Americans occupied the Azores and violated this sovereign nation. I think the proper thing is to allow the allies to influence these nations into war by paying some “fee” representing some aid agreement. Then they get the value and the forces can be picked up and used.
Yeah the pre-4th-edition rule of playing fee is actually realistic representation for some situations.
@Imperious:
good ideas except in revised some of the Spainish territories you mention are not on the board!
I just checked my board again, and Rio the Oro (Spanish Morocco), Angola and Mozambique are all part of the Revised board…
Reading the example of the U.S. invading the Azores… the Allies should indeed then also be able to invade “Neutrals” In 1941 the UK and some Soviet troops had invaded “Persia” to secure Oil and transportation routes to Russia. The same thing the UK did with Iraq.
Rio the Oro is not the same as Spanish Morocco but basically what is on the board can be Spainish allies
Sorry You’re right, I meant Spanish Sahara…
But back to the Neutrals. Maybe Sweden should start the game with giving 2 IPC each round to the German Player, reflecting their support to the German war Industry. Germany didn’t really need Sweden and Switzerland to become full allies, their neutrality had some pro’s as well. However, both German and Italy tried to convince Franco of Spain several times to join the Axis site as a extra buffer on the western front (Help for Germany) and to close the Mediterranean for UK ships. (Help for Italy)
This could be separate goals in the game for the German and Italian player to persuade Spain into the war.
So under what condition should Sweden switch side?
*Axis IPC drop below a certain level?
*Allies control of nearby territories?
Someone can give me a history lesson.
Would Sweden switch back under certain conditions? :-D
Sweden should continue aid to germany at 2 ipc untill the allies control finland and norway… that isolation would have forced “Neutral Sweden” into a more neutral track
Well the Norway territory includes Norway and Finland I think.
So should it be a condition on the control of Norway and that SZ which isolates Sweden?
Afghanistan, Asia
Angola, Africa: All units allowed to go through and stay.
Argentina, South America
Himalaya, Asia: Air units allowed to fly through?
Mongolia, Asia
Mozambique, Africa: All units allowed to go through and stay.
Peru, South America
Rio De Oro, Africa: All units allowed to go through and stay.
Sahara, Asia: All units allowed to go through but not stay?
Saudi Arabia, Asia
Spain, Europe
Sweden, Europe: Germany received 2 additional IPCs until Norway is first captured by Allies?
Switzerland, Europe
Turkey, Europe
Venezuela, South America
any comments?
Afghanistan, Asia
Angola, Africa: All units allowed to go through and stay.
Argentina, South America
Himalaya, Asia: Air units allowed to fly through?
Mongolia, Asia
Mozambique, Africa: All units allowed to go through and stay.
Peru, South America
Rio De Oro, Africa: All units allowed to go through and stay.
Sahara, Asia: All units allowed to go through but not stay?
Saudi Arabia, Asia
Spain, Europe
Sweden, Europe: Germany received 2 additional IPCs until Norway is first captured by Allies?
Switzerland, Europe
Turkey, Europe
Venezuela, South America
in every case a value needs to be assigned where perfect neutral is zero, positive =allies influenced, axis =negative influenced
also an index of the nations forces needs to be established and rules about DOW and values assigned to them.
oh yeah
something like
-2 axis can stay
-1 axis can go thru
0 neutral, geographic difficulties (eg. Himalayas)
1 allies can go thru
2 allies can stay
or if inadequate we’ll need to specifically declare
movement/reside/none for axis and allies
for geography
should you allow land units to enter Himalayas at all?
can units stay in Sahara at all?
Afghanistan, Asia:
Angola, Africa:
Argentina, South America:
Himalaya, Asia: 0
Mongolia, Asia:
Mozambique, Africa:
Peru, South America:
Rio De Oro, Africa:
Sahara, Asia: 0
Saudi Arabia, Asia:
Spain, Europe:
Sweden, Europe:
Switzerland, Europe:
Turkey, Europe:
Venezuela, South America:
-2 axis can stay
-1 axis can go thru
0 neutral, geographic difficulties (eg. Himalayas)
1 allies can go thru
2 allies can stay
…. not sure … i was thinking to have -7 thru 0 and up to +7 for a total of 15 values. perfect neutral is 0 and the range of neutrality is -2 thru +2… pro allies +3—+7 and pro axis is -3----- -7 each of the five levels has a specific value to benifit either side.
Do you need that many distinctions?
I mean besides letting a team’s units travel thru or stay in their territory, and income (like Swedan to Germany) what other effects are there?
We could go all the way and have situations like Allies can’t invade a “neutral” which is minor Axis, unless Axis units are there…
OK heres an example:
Somehow Spain falls from neutral -2 into -3 which is slightly pro axis.
-3= Air units can fly over this neutral
-4= You gain the neutrals money (consider it aid)
-5= Your armed forces can move thru this neutral w/o penalty
-6= The neutral now allows its armed forces to be involved in attacks against adjacent country’s
-7= The neutrals economy and armed forces are now in direct control of the coalition they are aligned with… these forces can be sent anywhere the player wishes.
this would be the same hierarchy for axis or allies.
the allies would be positive integers
specific events would trigger a neutral status roll… e.g. taking a neighbor over by conquest would allow a roll.
the “die roll” consists of each side rolling once … whoever wins gets the status moved up or down the neutral scale… modifications for as i said taking a country next to the neutral or taking out a major player or VC… many things could happen.
possibly too much to monitor
though I the levels/distinctions you’ve outlines is quite reasonable
but you’ve left out the case of just air bases
so air units can move through as well as stay
was there a historic case, or is it a reasonable hypothesis…of a “neutral” letting both axis AND allies aircraft to fly though it?
Their is no such case. I thought further on this…
Germany gets 2 rolls
USA gets 2 rolls
UK gets 1 roll
japan and USSR get zero rolls
each turn one neutral can be targeted for change in status: if you roll a 6 or higher the neutral nation moves closer to align with your camp. Only one roll per neutral and each territory you own adjacent to this territory gives you a +1 modification on the roll.
some neutrals are at perfect zero, while others are either up or down the scale. Once a nation passes into your camp… then the other side cannot convert it back. so if a neutral is at -3 its in the axis camp no matter what.
I will prepare other modifications based on if you own a specific nation to model history.
the idea works very well… because say the allies move argentina toward becoming an ally… the axis can counter on its turn and attempt to move it back into neutrality.
this sounds cool!
adjacent territories
eg. being surrounded by Axis, Switzerland is not going to switch to pro-Allies
frequent switching
ensure neutrals don’t keep switching sides…because that wouldn’t be right :|
occupying forces
the status of a neutral should freeze if there is occupying forces
levels
how about just
-3 full axis, no longer neutral, invadable by allies
-2 axis forces can go thru
-1 income to axis
0 neutral
+1 allies ditto
+2 allies ditto
+3 allies ditto
income
Afghanistan, Asia: 1
Angola, Africa: 0
Argentina, South America: 1
Eire, Europe: 0
Himalaya, Asia: 0
Mongolia, Asia: 1
Mozambique, Africa: 0
Peru, South America: 1
Rio De Oro, Africa: 0
Sahara, Asia: 0
Saudi Arabia, Asia: 2
Spain, Europe: 3
Sweden, Europe: 2
Switzerland, Europe: 1
Turkey, Europe: 2
Venezuela, South America: 1
They cant “switch”… reread my last post… once its in your camp thats it… On the issue of switzerland they would be at zero which requires 3 movement points to get it in your camp, plus they would only get about one infantry as forces and a economic value of say 1…so bottom line it would be a waste of your roll for the value in return. The battleground would be turkey, sweden, spain, south america and naturally some are closer to the axis camp than allies while others are pro allies or neutral +1 or +2
I was editing my post and took 2 minutes too long haha
