We need an allied playbook.

@M36 said in We need an allied playbook.:

@AldoRaine How about a destroyer block in 112 as well? Edit: Provided the Germans have stacked in the baltic like you said.

Italian fighters and/or bomber can easily sink a destroyer on its turn, opening it back up.

German player can (should?) also place their cruiser in sz 112 that will have 3 fighters available to scramble to prevent UK from putting a ship there at all.

@weddingsinger Yes but then those Italian planes aren’t available for fighting in the Med. I guess there’s pros and cons for literally every move that can be made haha.

@M36 that is what makes this game so great.

And we still haven’t come up with an Allies playbook, although we have some very worthwhile strategies here. I’ve been working on one for some time, but so much of it is dependent on the axis.

@AldoRaine said in We need an allied playbook.:

One of the reasons I say the sz92 stack eliminates sea lion is that now the Germans have to fight through the Royal Navy to get to London. It seems it is most poplular for the Germans to place their major transport buy in the baltic.

Yeah, but I’m buying my transports on G2, after I’ve seen your Gibraltar stack on UK1. So even if usually I would put my transports in the Baltic, I can make sure to put them in the North Sea to evade the UK navy. Also, what is the US going to hit the transports with in SZ 112 on US2? The only units I can count that can reach are the Central US bomber and the Eastern US fighter (assuming it moved to Iceland on US1). I don’t see that any bombers US purchased on US1 can reach the Western German / North Sea zone on US2.

But, yes, I love the pros and cons and trade-offs. They’re fun. :)

@Argothair So lets say you place your transports on sz112. As the allies I would now know sea lion is going to happen. This leaves me with a couple of options. I can either stack sz110 or sz109 with Royal Navy and invite the assault in the empty sz or I can split my forces and make you use air to win the navy battle. Both options have their perks but my personal choice is usually to stack sz 110 and invite the landing in sz109 on turn 3. With out a navy build by the Germans, whatever navy I have left in sz110 kills your transports and then you stranded a bunch of units lost a lot of unit value.

The most effective sea lions i have faced involve a carrier buy and landing in Scotland a turn prior. but this then requires an assault of sz 110.

I’m confused. If I buy 8 transports on G2, don’t you know Sea Lion is going to happen no matter where I put them?

Don’t get me wrong; I’m not saying a big 'ol stack of British boats in the Western Med is useless for responding to a Sea Lion attack. I’m just saying I would be too afraid to have zero boats, 2 planes, and only 1 extra infantry in the United Kingdom at the end of UK1.

Maybe I get into the historical/roleplaying aspect of things too much, or maybe you’ve worked out all the permutations and you can definitely confirm that there’s no viable attack on London after your Gibraltar stack. I have not worked out all the permutations, and to me it looks extremely risky.

@AldoRaine said in We need an allied playbook.:

@Argothair So lets say you place your transports on sz112. As the allies I would now know sea lion is going to happen. This leaves me with a couple of options. I can either stack sz110 or sz109 with Royal Navy and invite the assault in the empty sz or I can split my forces and make you use air to win the navy battle. Both options have their perks but my personal choice is usually to stack sz 110 and invite the landing in sz109 on turn 3. With out a navy build by the Germans, whatever navy I have left in sz110 kills your transports and then you stranded a bunch of units lost a lot of unit value.

The most effective sea lions i have faced involve a carrier buy and landing in Scotland a turn prior. but this then requires an assault of sz 110.

Are you presuming UK ships left in either SZ110 or 111?

Looks like a UK stack in sz92 is sinkable by Italy alone. If it failed you’d maybe have 1-3 fighters left, or choose to save the carrier, I suppose, but… if there is a ship left Germany can still hit it with bombers (why my G1 buy of 2 bombers is so useful). Leaving UK with no blockers for sz112

The other end of my concern is that it leaves Italy with 2 transports, not 1, and the bulk of its own navy. So even if Italy doesn’t attack I1, UK can’t sink Italy’s ships on UK2. Don’t games with this move end up with a strong italy?

@weddingsinger Italians can only bring in their fighters I1 if Southern France is taken by the Germans. Whether or not this is done plays a major role into the decision making but would not necessarily eliminate the stack. Without the fighters and assuming only 1 UK destroyer and 2 fighters in Gib the allies have a 93% chance of winning with 5 units left. If the axis player is dead set on sea lion this is a good move by the Italians for the reasons you mentioned. However if Gibraltar has 3 fighters and 2 destroyers are present in sz92 it is nothing short of suicide for the Italians to attack. If the Germans purchased no transports G1 and 2 bombers, best case for G2 attack is around 60% if Uk only places 1 fighter and 1 inf and 38 % with 4 inf. I guess it is better than a coin flip but game is over if it fails. Also you should lose it that turn from the counter attack that the English can launch since at most you are defending with 2 land units.

G3 is the window for sea lion and with out a German navy buy R1. Stacking sz92 as UK will allow the most units to converge on the defense of London by G3. This move still leaves other strategic objectives on the table should the Germans call it off.

@AldoRaine

Ahhh, I get it now… so if Germany doesn’t take S. France, Italy is no threat to your navy. How does this end up playing out for you? Doesn’t Italy get a nice boost from having their 2 transports? If no Sea Lion threat, what do you usually do with the navy? I guess unless Germany really threatens it with their air force, you can hang around Gibraltor and deny Italy its N.O.s for a bit…

Drawing the Luftwaffe away from Russia for a round is certainly a helpful biproduct of this strategy as well.

@AldoRaine @weddingsinger @M36 @Argothair Wow - a lot of catching up on this thread for me! I enjoyed the dialogue and see some new approaches for UK. It does seem like the conversation is focused on the opening moves for UK. How would you guys fold your dialogue into the bigger picture of this thread - an allied playbook? I actually think that this recent discussion of UK opening moves dovetails with the more general objectives that @crockett36 has spent a lot of time on. I would see it this way:

1. Defense of London comes 1st. This also involves preserving units you start the game with and trying to destroy enemy units as well. With that the decision to attack the Italian Med fleet piece meal must be weighed against the possibility of a Sea Lion. Watch what the Germans do G1. Maybe a stack in SZ92 is a good option to help save London which is what you guys have been talking about.

2. Defense of the Atlantic is 2nd. This sets up the UK to pose some threat to “nibble at Germany” and work toward a main objective of the allies–Destroying the Axis’ ability to wage war. If the Axis own the Med, or the waters around London this is really difficult. Maybe the stack in SZ92 also helps with this?

3. Defense of Egypt is 3rd (most important). I think that the consolidation of the Italian Med fleet makes this difficult. Especially if UK have to swing their fleet from SZ92 up to help defend Sea Lion. The allies have left the Italians with a strong presence to take Egypt. In the game I used as an example earlier in this thread the UK lost their Med fleet and Germany owned the waters around London. Italy kept slowly building their navy up (with few troops in Italy to defend any invasion). But an aircraft carrier, destroyer, etc later it eventually led to the allies loss.

So, Taranto is a fairly certain/safer way to neuter Italy’s Med Naval presence and North African ambitions. I would like to hear from Aldo or whoever has used the SZ92 stack what happens when there is no Sea Lion and the UK fleet is left in SZ92. Do they engage the combined Italian fleet for a mutually assured destructive battle?

And, more importantly, how that fits into the meta strategy for this allied playbook? How do opening moves play into the allied decision regarding order of importance for defending positions on the map? How does this set the allies up in the early game to nibble at and debilitate the axis war machine.

@Guam-Solo From reading the forum I have deduced that I am a highly unconventional Allied player, therefore I disagree wholeheartedly with everything you have said. 😆 I take issue with the first word on two of three points: Defense.

Defense of London: Obviously it’s a huge blow to lose ones capitol, but is it sometimes worth it to generate an overall Allied victory? Think about it, if you dump too many IPCs on defensive units you will find you have a nice shield but no sword. Now you don’t want to give up UK too cheaply to the Germans, but I still advocate for a “just barely enough” defense to make taking UK costly for Germany, but not an impregnable fortress. Also, if London falls then the Russians and Americans both get to declare war on Germany.

Defense of the Atlantic: I can’t disagree with you here. The Atlantic is the Anglo American ocean. Don’t let those Krauts gain any “ground” there because “nibbling” at Germany becomes impossible, and the US retaking London is very difficult if they must first establish Sea superiority.

Defense of Egypt’s: Attack attack attack. Until I am shown some super strategy that’s a 100% guaranteed success I will always say attack those Italians before they get to move. Build troops and a transport for S.Africa and even an Egyptian complex to crush Italy. UKs economy is three times the size of Italy’s. Show those pastafarian chaps that the sun never sets on the British empire.

I will call my playbook once I have completed it the “Allied book of Banzai” 😂

@Guam-Solo yes I think the strategic objectives that @crockett36 mentioned are great. I don’t necessarily agree with all of them 100% but no one ever will. But I do think that an allied playbook should be formatted in that way.

Most of what I have contributed focuses on UK’s opening moves which is only a small part of the allied strategy. However, they are the only allied member who starts at war with the axis so early game strategy for them deserves a lot of focus.

As far as what to do with the UK navy, I would say it depends on what your goals are as the allies. Lame answer I know but the navy could provide an extra layer of defense for any US armada that they send to Europe which mean more money can be spent in the Pacific or on land units. Once the Germans declare war on Russia (taking sea lion off the table) the navy could be used to shoot across the med and either defend Egypt if need be. If the allies are feeling really adventuresome they could send the navy to the pacific (could reach India UK5) and provide an excellent addition to any pacific fleet the allies have put together. I have had a lot of success with this at times due to the fact that it will force Japan to keep its navy together since blocking no longer would work with UK having a capable strike force.

If the Italian navy is trapped in the Med, I do not believe trading UK ships for Italian ships is advantageous. Egypt can be secured even with the presence of multiple transports in the Italian Navy.

@Guam-Solo I should also mention that I feel it is actually the US’s responsibility to make sure Italy doesn’t grow out of control and not the UK’s. Both are needed but the easist target for the US is Italy so they should be smart and start there. I am not saying they need to assault Rome directly but the need to make sure they stay in Europe.

I think if we’re sticking closely to the theme of a “playbook” then it is not really worthwhile to debate the relative priority of the UK’s tasks – instead the thing to do is to just name the UK’s tasks, and briefly explain what the Allies need to get done, and then suggest some of the tactics that can work, either individually or as a package, to accomplish some of those tasks.

For example, let’s say for the sake of argument that we all think that the UK wants to defend London, push Germany out of the Atlantic, and defend Egypt in the opening. Fine! We don’t need to rank the importance of those tasks. Instead we can discuss the Taranto Raid, and the Gibraltar Stack, and the Tobruk Attack, and the Ethiopia Attack, and the Middle Earth setup, and advise our readers on how well each of those openings will serve each of the UK’s goals. That way readers can decide for themselves what goals they want to prioritize and then pick an opening that will help achieve their goals.

Well said, and ultimately it’s all dependent on G1 and the players you are facing. I think I’ve made my position of Tobruk and Taranto being top priorities for UK clear.

OK, so if a basic goal structure “playbook” is more helpful… most of us use the U.K. to help Russia keep Moscow and to keep Italy in check.

If Sea Lion is such a threat that UK HAS to buy for it, it slows UK down when we buy 6 inf and 1 fighter.

Looking at the math, it appears that if the UK goes fighter heavy on its UK1 and 2 buys, with infantry filling in the rest (so adding 4 fighters and 4 inf to London) and you don’t scramble or only lose 1 fighter on turn 1 (either to a scramble or Taranto), Germany’s Sea Lion success falls to 50/50 assuming 10 transports, 3 fighters and 3 tacticals attacking.

So this would allow a UK1 buy of 2 fighters, 2 infantry for London, and the extra fighters can head to Russia via either the riskier Karaelia route on UK2 or the long way and land on Moscow UK5. (though they can make Novgorod in 1 turn taking off from Scotland so if you’re not worried about German bombers, UK1 you could put them there, then land UK2 in Russia if Germany does Barbarossa G2)

Anyone up for some Triple A games to do some competitive testing?

As this thread is up to 9 pages now, I thought to re-direct readers back to pages 1-2 where a lot has been written for an allied playbook including opening moves for each allied nation. @Argothair detailed some very good opening sequences for the allies, and @crockett36 has written a lot about objectives for the allies.