The seazone 92 consolidation as mentioned is an issue, but to me it is the sheer fact that a battleship and a cruiser are irreplaceable to the British, literally. Destroyers and Transports are what the British will funnel into their build for the first 4-5 rounds while also spending in the Middle East/Africa. A big buy for the British is an Airbase for Gibraltar or Egypt, maybe a Carrier. Allowing them to keep a Battleship and a Cruiser gives them a Nucleus to their fleet that they could never have until round 4+. Replacing those two units is the entire UK2 purchase. However, replacing SZ109 and SZ106 while costing relatively the same, can be replaced in bites that SZ110 cannot be done in.
Killing capital ships is massive, this is reflected not just in Germany’s opening turn but also the UK’s and Japan’s, the reason you do Taranto is because allowing the Italian BB to live gives their fleet a nucleus that is very hard to knock down once it is stacked up. Killing the British BB off of Malaya is also a huge reason J1’s are done, that BB can become the Nucleus of an Anzac defense in 54 or can become the Nucleus off of Egypt around Round 3, both of these options are thorns in the side of the Axis.
I think you also overestimate how much this helps Italy, even if this stops Taranto (which if you play with a bid is not guaranteed) it just means that the UK is free to crush Tobruk turn 1, even if your fighter from Hungary flies down to defend UK has 73% odds in Tobruk. I would do like the other guys said and maybe find a way of leaving 111 instead so that you can positively chase it down.
Excellent points everyone. I now feel like I have a geninue argument against letting 110 live. This will greatly help me explain the necessity of destroying 110 in Axis strategy talks.
Perhaps now would be a good time to begin the argument for letting 111 live or just strafing it. I always used to strafe 111 if I wasn’t going all in on killing it, but perhaps leaving 111 alone will open up other options like good odds for 106 and 91 that were the basis for my playing the devil’s advocate for 110?
110 is pretty much the next most-targeted area for Germany to attack after Paris. That means a French cruiser has to die. Well, so much for that plan.
No it is not. I always ignore 110 and with my strategy they never cause me a problem. Obviously I have counters for them if they decide to stay around
I normally strafe sz111 with the bb. I see now that it is really a mistake for the defenders to opt out of the scramble to sz110 with that attack, but most do.
My main theory is to keep the German bb alive to protect w Germany and Norway later in the game. Sometimes players can run the damaged sz111 bb back to Canada to be repaired but this takes it out of the game for a number of rounds. Still, if that bb combines with a us cv and a scramble in sz110, it is almost impossible to dislodge the fleet at least until Moscow is down and your air can run home.
@Charles:
I don’t understand why you’re sending 6 planes to 109 and four to 111. 109 can manage four scrambling fighters. You only need five planes to make it a battle in your favor. If UK scrambles, it’s Sea Lion time. 111 needs the five planes though to be safe. I also fail to see how the TUV is in UK’s favor:
Sea Zone 109:
1 submarine, 2 fighters, 2 tactical bombers, 1 strategic bomber vs. 1 destroyer and 4 fighters:
CALC: three hits average both sides.
1 fighter, 1 tactical bomber, 1 strategic bomber vs 2 fighters
CALC: 2-1 hits average
Surviving: 1 German strategic bomber plus another plane. Even if the Germans lost all but one plane, a British destroyer and transport went down in exchange for a sub, making up for the slightly higher value of tactical bombers.
–This is three planes for four=battle in Germany’s favor. Of course the Allies could get lucky, but so could Germany.
One less bomber reduces your odds to 72% or thereabouts (average tuv swing of +10). If Allies don’t scramble, it’s an average swing of +13. So 28% of scoring a win G1. Maybe some players wouldn’t risk it, but I would scramble every time. Losing all the figs in 109 won’t prevent UK from consolidating 92, so even if Germany gets some lucky dice, a Sea Lion followup is not necessarily going to be easy.
Re. 111, with the extra bomber you have 96% with the scramble. I’d prolly scramble 109 against that deployment but the 111 scramble also changes the average swing from +30 to +25 (plus the 4% chance of winning the battle).
I think I see what was confusing me, Zhukov. You’re comparing the total units lost in a non-scramble battle versus a scramble battle. Even though the UK is going to lose more units on average, what you’re saying is that the scramble tightens the gap and forces Germany to lose more stuff as well. Good point.
Simon, I’m interested in your reasoning of why the Allies should scramble 110 if you’re doing a 111 strafe. Does this logic also apply to a standard wipe-out attack on both 110 and 111? In a 11 strafe, are you leaving more submarines to hit other places like 106 and 91?
Just to throw in a thought …
By leaving 111 alive you would grant UK a destroyer which would immediately be put to use huntig your surviving submarines.
Whereas one of the big benefits of your original plan was a “destroyerless” Britain.
@Charles:
I think I see what was confusing me, Zhukov. You’re comparing the total units lost in a non-scramble battle versus a scramble battle. Even though the UK is going to lose more units on average, what you’re saying is that the scramble tightens the gap and forces Germany to lose more stuff as well. Good point.
Simon, I’m interested in your reasoning of why the Allies should scramble 110 if you’re doing a 111 strafe. Does this logic also apply to a standard wipe-out attack on both 110 and 111? In a 11 strafe, are you leaving more submarines to hit other places like 106 and 91?
I’m referring to the point upthread that if the Germans don’t bring the BB into SZ110, every hit the RAF get downs a Luftwaffe. Given that the first round Luftwaffe hits can usually be taken on the Royal Navy, you’re talking about 3-4 Luftwaffe destroyed (unless they retreat after round 1 I guess) for the loss of 3 allied fighters which aren’t worth as much in the game. As Allies I would gladly trade 1 RAF for 1 Luftwaffe and probably even 3 for 2. The French fighter is worth even less than the RAF as well.
Not a must but it buys Germany and Italy some time.
The French fighter is worth even less? With that mentality no wonder some of those French patriots left the RAF to fly Yaks for the Soviets. Besides, we mustn’t forget that France has a unique ability no other Allied power possess: going after Italy. Sometimes that French fighter can he a pain for this very reason.
On a more serious note, are you not bringing in submarines to attack 110 in your 111 strafe scenario?
No dd, no sub hits by RAF
@Charles:
The French fighter is worth even less? With that mentality no wonder some of those French patriots left the RAF to fly Yaks for the Soviets. Besides, we mustn’t forget that France has a unique ability no other Allied power possess: going after Italy. Sometimes that French fighter can he a pain for this very reason.
On a more serious note, are you not bringing in submarines to attack 110 in your 111 strafe scenario?
heh heh
yea I try to save the French ftr just because it can’t reproduce. Or is unlikely too : ) 2 inf on an allied trprt with a ftr does project some power that can’t be completely ignored
heh heh
yea I try to save the French ftr just because it can’t reproduce. Or is unlikely too : ) 2 inf on an allied trprt with a ftr does project�  some power that can’t be completely ignored
Nice idea, 2 French infantry on a UK Tranny and 1 French Fighter on a UK Carrier, starting from Gibraltar Naval Base, moving after US, UK and Italy, must keep this in mind and try next game….
@Charles:
On a more serious note, are you not bringing in submarines to attack 110 in your 111 strafe scenario?
What colt said.
Fighters or no fighters, my question still remains. Are you bringing in a submarine or three to take hits from the cruiser and battleship?
@Charles:
Fighters or no fighters, my question still remains. Are you bringing in a submarine or three to take hits from the cruiser and battleship?
Yes, two.
I agree with the above statement that the importance of preserving the Luftwaffe outweighs the need to take out the BB in SZ110, in addition to any fighters scrambled. Additionally, by foregoing SZ110, as Germany you can also preserve your BB on G1 for use in later rounds or in the hopes of consolidating your fleet with the Italians in the Med.
My concern about leaving a UK fleet of any kind is making it easier for them to:
And when the US does come knocking it means that they can spend almost fully on trannys and men rather than carriers and destroyers to protect them, which means more of them will come or the Japanese player will take even more heat.
I had many games where I skipped 110, I had also games where I skipped 111.
The difference to not attacking both, 110 and 111 is reduced variance.
