League General Discussion Thread

WindowWasher

Not a League player, but found this interesting.
Are there any other leagues similar to this maybe in different games that use different systems? You guys could look around see if there are any better systems out there, and I like the idea of ELO, but it cant reset to 0 every year, there has to be some sort of placement system, and with the frequency that games are played (not often), it would be difficult to have an accurate system.

oysteilo

@WindowWasher said in League General Discussion Thread:

Not a League player, but found this interesting.
Are there any other leagues similar to this maybe in different games that use different systems? You guys could look around see if there are any better systems out there, and I like the idea of ELO, but it cant reset to 0 every year, there has to be some sort of placement system, and with the frequency that games are played (not often), it would be difficult to have an accurate system.

And thats why the system is how it is. The resetting each January is also in new players advantage as they dont have to carry on old games while still learning the game.

But I think the main criticism has been that new players “cant” play top tier players with todays system while an elo system would allow this. This is a fair point. But new players won’t rise to top tier level any faster with an elo system I think (and hope)

So I still don’t understand why it is so extremely important to play tier E or M while you are unranked or have a low average score. It is still possible “to learn from the best” by studying their games. Most situations in round 1 and 2 are covered

AndrewAAGamer

@oysteilo

I think the discovery of the Play Boardgames area where high ranked Players can play lower ranked Players for fun solves this issue. I just wish we promoted it more to new players as for example I had no idea it even existed.

Also trulpen and I will be having a World vs Andrew game here shortly. Check it out as a learning opportunity for anyone interested.

https://www.axisandallies.org/forums/topic/35254/tutor-game-andrewaagamer-x-vs-trulpen-and-everyone-else-a-50-oob

oysteilo

@AndrewAAGamer said in League General Discussion Thread:

@oysteilo

I think the discovery of the Play Boardgames area where high ranked Players can play lower ranked Players for fun solves this issue. I just wish we promoted it more to new players as for example I had no idea it even existed.

Also trulpen and I will be having a World vs Andrew game here shortly. Check it out as a learning opportunity for anyone interested.

https://www.axisandallies.org/forums/topic/35254/tutor-game-andrewaagamer-x-vs-trulpen-and-everyone-else-a-50-oob

Fun and great initiative! I will follow it! :)

Karl7

Hey, I am back. Where are we with bids for BM3?

I’ve been told it’s back to Allies? If so, what is typical? +12

oysteilo

@Karl7 said in League General Discussion Thread:

Hey, I am back. Where are we with bids for BM3?

I’ve been told it’s back to Allies? If so, what is typical? +12

Yeah +12 seems typical. Krazy Carl, wanna go for it?

Karl7

@oysteilo

Sent you a DM!

aequitas-et-veritas

Hey @Karl7 , we are not done yet!
I want my revenge, am hungry.
Do you hear my war cry??!?
Kill kill.

Sent me a PM!

trulpen

@Karl7 said in League General Discussion Thread:

Hey, I am back. Where are we with bids for BM3?

I’ve been told it’s back to Allies? If so, what is typical? +12

Between 3 and 14, or if you want to narrow it down, 8.

jim010

Hey Karl. No love for OOB?

Karl7

@jim010 said in League General Discussion Thread:

Hey Karl. No love for OOB?

I play it sometimes so there is still love

gamerman01

My understanding of the purpose of the league:

A way to play A&A with a large group of players that you become somewhat familiar with
A way to have an official record of your games accumulate so you can see where you stand among your fellow A&A fans
A way to find games with players who you can size up (know their skill level) even without knowing them
A way to measure your progress as you get better at A&A
An organization that keeps players together so you can play certain players repeatedly over months/years of time

There’s probably more, that’s just off top of my head

jim010

Hey Gamerman. I have no issues with how you run the league. All good with me.

surfer

Just my $0.02. I was on a path to work up the ladder then work got in the way in 2019…so here I’m am again in 2020. Mostly I like the league scoring and it is a very strong indicator of the system’s validity that the best players are the highest rated players each year. So let’s not muck with the system too much.

The main detractor is that it significantly penalizes top-tier players from playing anyone less. I saw this first hand as I was waiting to play and top-tier players were not willing to damage their scores–I get it.

The suggestion that you play low-vs-high tier games in the non-league forum has some merit, but 2 cons:
a) It’s not a league game so the desire to win is not as great
b) These games take alot of time to play, especially if you want to have 8+ games year and not interfere with real life (work, family, etc.) So I can’t imagine a top-tier player wanting to spend much time on games that don’t count. If you have the time, great go for it. Everyone else doesn’t (possible exception due to COVID-19…boo)

So what’s my suggested modification?
Allow 1 game between players 3+ tiers apart (M-2or3, or E-3) to count each year subject to the following adapted scoring:
a) For the higher ranked person
If they win, the game counts as being played towards the 8 games for playoff, but there is no score, i.e whatever their average was before the game, that’s their average after the game.
If they lose, the game counts but the loss is considered to a player 2 tiers lower than their level (M= loss to tier 1 = 2pts, E= loss to tier 2 = 1 pt).

b) For the lower ranked person.
Standard league scoring in effect.

Rationale:
The main goal here is purely personal–as a possibly upcoming new player, I’d like to see games against better players to improve my game. But also as @AndrewAAGamer said, its better for the league – as in making it more competitive, if everyone gets to learn from the better players. I think with this mod, if a higher player is looking for a new game, they will seriously consider playing lower ranked players.

I set the one game limit between any pair of players to allow more players to interact in the low-vs-high games. Every one may want a piece of the Master, and this way a few more might get the opportunity.

Caveat:
The current scoring algorithm constantly updates ranking based upon the wins/loses of your opponents. This could cause a problem in determining if a game should be a “normal” match or a high-low game once all games are tallied at the end of the year. There is also a possible ambiguous situation that could occur if a low ranked player gets “lucky”. viz. 2 players each play 8 games for the year. One was E tier the year before, the other had no record. The E-tier player plays 4 games against E level goes 2-2 (avg=5.00) and has 4 low tier games (Tier 3) that he wins – no score, but his average stays at 5.00 and he remains a solid E tier player. All good. Now the new player plays 4 games against Tier 3 and wins avg=4.00 and 4 games against tier E players. He a good player but lucky dice help him to 2-2 record. avg = 5.00. So his avg for the year is 4.5, which would also classify as E (barely), but would place him out of the top 8, no playoff, (based on 2019 results). Again, I think most everyone would be good with this.

Here’s the rub. For the algorithm, these players have identical records 2-2 vs E and 4-0 vs Tier 3. How to differentiate them? The solution would be to use the prior year’s rank to determine if you are playing a high-low game or normal scoring. This is also important to make this work because if a M-tier player was really on board with this and gave 4 games to new players, who at the time were Tier 2 or 3, but by the end of the year had worked their way into Tier 1 status. Suddenly, that player will see his avg change as those 4 games would now be (wins?) against 4 Tier 1 players under normal scoring rules (6pts). Might not really be a problem as only 2 people had 6.0+ avg for 2019, but I would not want to be the reason to muck up the higher orders.
Lastly, using last years ranking would simply coding the scoring. Quick check at records to see how to score, rather than iterative examination of everyone’s ranking.

Other constraints

gamerman01

Wow, you put a lot of thought into that and I read almost every word. I appreciate that effort.

I understand that as avid A&A players, you all are big time thinkers and don’t mind putting a lot of time into your endeavors. Always looking to improve things. That’s fine, just putting that out there.

A huge plus of the current system is that you can easily take any individual’s score and recalculate it to make sure it’s correct. It’s also already fairly complex, and adding little exceptions like this make it more complex.

I get it, some of you are fantasizing about the newcomer playing a tier M. Or even a tier 2 playing a tier M. I have a rebuttal to this, and I think it’s very, very strong, honestly.

As it stands now, a tier M gets 6 points for beating a tier 1, which is worth his time. A tier E gets 5 points for beating a tier 2, which also scores him 5 points which makes him a more solid tier E and works toward counting toward the 8 to be in the main playoff ( note that you do not need 8 games to play in the 2nd or 3rd playoff and only 8 players actually need the 8 games to play in the league championship playoff in January)

Now, apologies to my current opponent, Aequitas et veritas for the following, but is necessary for my rebuttal. He’s a very cool guy so I’m sure no offense will be taken.

Aequitas is a veteran of the site and has played a WHOPPING 86 games in the past 2 1/2 years. He’s a known quantity. Very known. He has averaged roughly 3.5, or a low tier 1 these 2 1/2 years. I have been off for over 2 years having played zero A&A. I accepted a challenge from AeV to have a fun game and knock a bunch of the rust off.

Now some of you will probably think I’m an insensitive jerk for this, but whatever. It’s just my honest opinion, and I guarantee you other top players of the site could look at our game and would 100% agree with me. Unfortunately, AeV has nearly 0 chance of winning our game, and this is only through J1. Again, no disrespect meant, AeV is a respected, well liked veteran of our league. But from my years of experience, I can assure you he has less than 1% chance of winning this game after J1. All I’ve done is make a scramble decision with the UK and moved a non-com R1. And don’t even talk about the dice - they would have to be uber extreme to matter.

I disagree with the 95% hypothetical of the chance a player has of winning against a player 2 tiers below him. I think it’s closer to 99%. A game between a Master and a tier 2 (which is a 3 tier difference, of course) isn’t just non-competitive. It’s pretty much a waste of time, league or no. It’s a bug against the windshield. I totally understand the sentiment of learning from better players. Trust me, a tier 3 could learn a lot from a game with a tier 2, and a tier 1 will learn a lot from a game with a tier 1 or a tier E. No need to play the Masters. Just look at their games if you want to learn from them.

You already can rapidly get a pretty decently accurate ranking if you play 3 games, unless you’re playing other unknown quantities. If I was new to this league, and I was pretty good at A&A, and I really wanted an accurate ranking because the PPG and ranking really mattered to me, then I’d challenge some tier E’s, 1’s, or 2’s, whoever will play me. You won’t have any trouble at all getting those games here. Guys like AeV play dozens per year. If you beat all 3, you’ll be a master. A 6.00 PPG. I think you guys are nitpicking, and your perceived problems aren’t even problems. There’s an answer to every one of them without changing the system, honestly.

gamerman01

With an “ELO” type system, doesn’t everyone start at 0 and have to play quite a few games to ever get to a high ranking? Like I illustrated in that last paragraph, here you can do it in 1 game. And get a full ranking with 3.

akreider2

@gamerman01 I’d be up for playing anyone at 100:1 odds (against me of course) for $100 if I lose, $10k if I win – escrowed. I might even do 50:1.

gamerman01

Yeah, but the master isn’t going to play you if he’d only win $100 from you if he could play someone else at 10:1 and win $1,000 for the same amount of effort.

gamerman01

Guys, if you’re not an E, a Master is absolutely taking candy from a baby. Shoot, Adam eats E’s for lunch.

gamerman01

On top of that, the 8 seed in the tournament always gets destroyed by the 1 seed, if I err not. The 8 seed is normally an E.

Absolutely no disrespect meant to anyone, I do like entertaining your points of view and ideas, and often they are quite entertaining. But from here at the top of the mountain, I also have the absolute prerogative to reject any and all ideas. But I will continue respecting you all unless you are toxic or mean, and we haven’t had any of those on the site for years, to my knowledge lol

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