@nikola1975 Not that I need more problems, but my attack on the small fleet near UK was rather pathetic.
one hit. OOL?
League General Discussion Thread
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That’s true.
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Thank you all for contributing! I hope it is okay that I apparently stirred up a hornets nest.
There is also a comparable discussion going on under the “Post League Game Results Here” that I just discovered with some really interesting information and dialogue about this topic.
My thoughts so far…
- @gamerman01 has to do a tremendous amount of manual work to maintain the current ranking system. THANK YOU! Could a system be implemented that is automatic? If I remember the one from Days of Infamy correctly as soon as a game was finished the results updated automatically. Not sure how that was done. Easily could have been someone working their butt off in the background though I hope it was a computer program doing it. Would an ELO system be more adaptive to a computer program?
- There is a Play Boardgames section outside of the League where people play games for fun. As a new player I am not sure if there was somewhere I was supposed to have read to know this. I assumed Play Boardgames was a section for other games outside of Axis and Allies. To make new players feel more welcome I think it would be nice to say “Hey you want to learn? Come play us in Play Boardgames!!! You want to compete? Come play in the League!!!” Perhaps there would be a way to generate an automatic e-mail to a new person just joining the website?
- Besides the top tier players not wanting to play lower ranked people due to the loss of their own League ranking there is, perhaps at least for some, the disinterest in playing someone not of their caliber due to the time and effort invested to play the games. That certainly is their prerogative. If they do want to help new players they can play them in the Play Boardgames section. For me I am happy to give back to the community that I have played in for so many years and as I mentioned before I enjoy helping players get better. So I will have a 'coaching" game that I will play at least once month or quarter depending on how long it takes to finish the current version where as many people that want to watch and ask questions can. The Players involved in the actual game would need to be limited to probably 1-3 opponents and as many as wanted to watch and ask questions could; but that can be discussed and determined later. I could answer questions and critique play regarding the pros and cons of discussed moves. Maybe just a practice game where people chirp in and vote on the next move? More to come on that.
- In League games are supposed to be for competitive and balanced opponents. A minimum of three games is needed to obtain a yearly ranking, 8 games to be eligible for the yearly League Tournament and the more games the better to minimize ranking system anomalies.
Again thank you all for your comments so far.
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Lets have ourselves a casual learning game, @AndrewAAGamer! :)
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As the lowest ranked Tier 1 (3.5 avg, but just won another game and am currently winning another and tied in a third that just started), I’m happy to see that I made it out of the lowest Tiers successfully. So my fears that the system would vastly under-exaggerate my true rank were overstated. I’d also like to thank the dice, Triple A, and my dual monitor setup.
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You should look at my 2-13 record with regard to tier. I at least know which players will spank me appropriately, not too hard and not too soft… :P
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@trulpen said in League General Discussion Thread:
Lets have ourselves a casual learning game, @AndrewAAGamer!
That sounds fine. Let me think how to do it plus I want to write up some strategy tips. Probably start after the 3 day weekend. Need to figure out how to promote it too for anyone who wants to learn.
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Not a League player, but found this interesting.
Are there any other leagues similar to this maybe in different games that use different systems? You guys could look around see if there are any better systems out there, and I like the idea of ELO, but it cant reset to 0 every year, there has to be some sort of placement system, and with the frequency that games are played (not often), it would be difficult to have an accurate system. -
@WindowWasher said in League General Discussion Thread:
Not a League player, but found this interesting.
Are there any other leagues similar to this maybe in different games that use different systems? You guys could look around see if there are any better systems out there, and I like the idea of ELO, but it cant reset to 0 every year, there has to be some sort of placement system, and with the frequency that games are played (not often), it would be difficult to have an accurate system.And thats why the system is how it is. The resetting each January is also in new players advantage as they dont have to carry on old games while still learning the game.
But I think the main criticism has been that new players “cant” play top tier players with todays system while an elo system would allow this. This is a fair point. But new players won’t rise to top tier level any faster with an elo system I think (and hope)
So I still don’t understand why it is so extremely important to play tier E or M while you are unranked or have a low average score. It is still possible “to learn from the best” by studying their games. Most situations in round 1 and 2 are covered
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I think the discovery of the Play Boardgames area where high ranked Players can play lower ranked Players for fun solves this issue. I just wish we promoted it more to new players as for example I had no idea it even existed.
Also trulpen and I will be having a World vs Andrew game here shortly. Check it out as a learning opportunity for anyone interested.
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@AndrewAAGamer said in League General Discussion Thread:
I think the discovery of the Play Boardgames area where high ranked Players can play lower ranked Players for fun solves this issue. I just wish we promoted it more to new players as for example I had no idea it even existed.
Also trulpen and I will be having a World vs Andrew game here shortly. Check it out as a learning opportunity for anyone interested.
Fun and great initiative! I will follow it! :)
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Hey, I am back. Where are we with bids for BM3?
I’ve been told it’s back to Allies? If so, what is typical? +12
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@Karl7 said in League General Discussion Thread:
Hey, I am back. Where are we with bids for BM3?
I’ve been told it’s back to Allies? If so, what is typical? +12
Yeah +12 seems typical. Krazy Carl, wanna go for it?
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Sent you a DM!
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Hey @Karl7 , we are not done yet!
I want my revenge, am hungry.
Do you hear my war cry??!?
Kill kill.Sent me a PM!
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@Karl7 said in League General Discussion Thread:
Hey, I am back. Where are we with bids for BM3?
I’ve been told it’s back to Allies? If so, what is typical? +12
Between 3 and 14, or if you want to narrow it down, 8.
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Hey Karl. No love for OOB?
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@jim010 said in League General Discussion Thread:
Hey Karl. No love for OOB?
I play it sometimes so there is still love
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My understanding of the purpose of the league:
A way to play A&A with a large group of players that you become somewhat familiar with
A way to have an official record of your games accumulate so you can see where you stand among your fellow A&A fans
A way to find games with players who you can size up (know their skill level) even without knowing them
A way to measure your progress as you get better at A&A
An organization that keeps players together so you can play certain players repeatedly over months/years of timeThere’s probably more, that’s just off top of my head
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Hey Gamerman. I have no issues with how you run the league. All good with me.
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Just my $0.02. I was on a path to work up the ladder then work got in the way in 2019…so here I’m am again in 2020. Mostly I like the league scoring and it is a very strong indicator of the system’s validity that the best players are the highest rated players each year. So let’s not muck with the system too much.
The main detractor is that it significantly penalizes top-tier players from playing anyone less. I saw this first hand as I was waiting to play and top-tier players were not willing to damage their scores–I get it.
The suggestion that you play low-vs-high tier games in the non-league forum has some merit, but 2 cons:
a) It’s not a league game so the desire to win is not as great
b) These games take alot of time to play, especially if you want to have 8+ games year and not interfere with real life (work, family, etc.) So I can’t imagine a top-tier player wanting to spend much time on games that don’t count. If you have the time, great go for it. Everyone else doesn’t (possible exception due to COVID-19…boo)So what’s my suggested modification?
Allow 1 game between players 3+ tiers apart (M-2or3, or E-3) to count each year subject to the following adapted scoring:
a) For the higher ranked person
If they win, the game counts as being played towards the 8 games for playoff, but there is no score, i.e whatever their average was before the game, that’s their average after the game.
If they lose, the game counts but the loss is considered to a player 2 tiers lower than their level (M= loss to tier 1 = 2pts, E= loss to tier 2 = 1 pt).b) For the lower ranked person.
Standard league scoring in effect.Rationale:
The main goal here is purely personal–as a possibly upcoming new player, I’d like to see games against better players to improve my game. But also as @AndrewAAGamer said, its better for the league – as in making it more competitive, if everyone gets to learn from the better players. I think with this mod, if a higher player is looking for a new game, they will seriously consider playing lower ranked players.I set the one game limit between any pair of players to allow more players to interact in the low-vs-high games. Every one may want a piece of the Master, and this way a few more might get the opportunity.
Caveat:
The current scoring algorithm constantly updates ranking based upon the wins/loses of your opponents. This could cause a problem in determining if a game should be a “normal” match or a high-low game once all games are tallied at the end of the year. There is also a possible ambiguous situation that could occur if a low ranked player gets “lucky”. viz. 2 players each play 8 games for the year. One was E tier the year before, the other had no record. The E-tier player plays 4 games against E level goes 2-2 (avg=5.00) and has 4 low tier games (Tier 3) that he wins – no score, but his average stays at 5.00 and he remains a solid E tier player. All good. Now the new player plays 4 games against Tier 3 and wins avg=4.00 and 4 games against tier E players. He a good player but lucky dice help him to 2-2 record. avg = 5.00. So his avg for the year is 4.5, which would also classify as E (barely), but would place him out of the top 8, no playoff, (based on 2019 results). Again, I think most everyone would be good with this.Here’s the rub. For the algorithm, these players have identical records 2-2 vs E and 4-0 vs Tier 3. How to differentiate them? The solution would be to use the prior year’s rank to determine if you are playing a high-low game or normal scoring. This is also important to make this work because if a M-tier player was really on board with this and gave 4 games to new players, who at the time were Tier 2 or 3, but by the end of the year had worked their way into Tier 1 status. Suddenly, that player will see his avg change as those 4 games would now be (wins?) against 4 Tier 1 players under normal scoring rules (6pts). Might not really be a problem as only 2 people had 6.0+ avg for 2019, but I would not want to be the reason to muck up the higher orders.
Lastly, using last years ranking would simply coding the scoring. Quick check at records to see how to score, rather than iterative examination of everyone’s ranking.Other constraints
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