League General Discussion Thread

@simon33 i personally don’t hate CMF in G40 BM games, it is just that i get confused with non CMF games i play at the same time.

I think i have to play more CMF games before i can really tell. Have maybe ten games played so far.

@simon33 Nothing wrong with combat moves first

@simon33 said in League General Discussion Thread:

Not just a league question but why does everyone hate the combat move first idea? Ever time I have to reload because I’ve put in the wrong buy I find it really irritating. Enough that it really reduces my enjoyment of playing the game. Why do you players like this idea? In 1.10, you’ll be able to post from the Purchase phase so will that resolve the annoyances with this idea?

Or is it the repair, plunder or CV purchase bugs? I’m guessing that it’s none of those things. Just that it’s different to the way it’s always been.

i like the idea my self.

@simon33 said in League General Discussion Thread:

Not just a league question but why does everyone hate the combat move first idea? Ever time I have to reload because I’ve put in the wrong buy I find it really irritating. Enough that it really reduces my enjoyment of playing the game. Why do you players like this idea? In 1.10, you’ll be able to post from the Purchase phase so will that resolve the annoyances with this idea?

Or is it the repair, plunder or CV purchase bugs? I’m guessing that it’s none of those things. Just that it’s different to the way it’s always been.

For me its two reasons. First you are changing the order of the turn phases and thus rearranging the game dynamics. (which I assume the game designer intended to be a certain way, but I could be wrong) I always look at these types of things as if it were a game board set up between two people. With CM first it seems like a dry run at your turn and then you purchase to fill in the holes. Which when sitting at a game board seems quite contrary to the rules and the specific turn phases. I guess I’m concrete and a rules stickler, I am pretty adamant about following the turn phases proprely and not mixing things around. (Always got in arguments with my bro when he would complete his turn in one continuous flow instead of following the run phases lol) For me this applies only to the board game set up. I am much more relaxed when it come to online play.
And secondly I just don’t think that way when playing the game. I have a specific mental routine for each turn. I can see the attacks I want to make. I see what things I want to accomplish in 2-3 turns. I plan for possible opponent moves and I buy accordingly. It gets me all confused if I start moving peices around to attack first. Just my style. I have no problem playing someone online who wants to CM first as long as I can play traditional. As for a face to face that would be a different story…

@simon33

Philosophically I think that everything in the turn order prior to the active player declaring their combat moves to be over should all be revisable.

During this portion there is zero new information available to the active player. By arbitrarily forcing them to decide purchases first you just force them to do their combat moves in their head for live games and in a separate Triple A file for online play. Both of which just tend to waste time rather than add any game dynamic.

I think the ideal scenario would be for the buy window to be available for revisions until the player clicks the button to lock in their combat moves. That way they can enter the purchases either before or after combat moves depending on personal preference.

Exactly right @Tizkit . Unfortunately the buy button can’t be made available in the move phase very easily at present.

@Tizkit said in League General Discussion Thread:

@simon33

Philosophically I think that everything in the turn order prior to the active player declaring their combat moves to be over should all be revisable.

During this portion there is zero new information available to the active player. By arbitrarily forcing them to decide purchases first you just force them to do their combat moves in their head for live games and in a separate Triple A file for online play. Both of which just tend to waste time rather than add any game dynamic.

I think the ideal scenario would be for the buy window to be available for revisions until the player clicks the button to lock in their combat moves. That way they can enter the purchases either before or after combat moves depending on personal preference.

I disagree. Why should it be revisable? The game designer took the time to break up the turn to have different phases of the the turn. I don’t think that was done without thought. There might be a purpose to buying units first. Changing the time when you buy units in a game can have great effect. (see castle risk vs risk) Not saying its that great of a change in A&A. I just don’t understand the need to do it. It can also have an effect as to remove the “whoops” moment. Maybe you purchased a wrong unit or one too many. Maybe you missed how far a unit could travel. Doing combat first may help to minimize those mistakes but for me thats part of the game. It gives it flavor. Maybe that was by design? I enjoy trying to work through my mistakes and see if I have prepared accordingly. With combat first movement why not just battle calc everything first as well? And then buy. Take all the risk out. Heck go LL and be really safe. I prefer the mental element of buy first. I’m just wired that way. Game on!

@majikforce i do agree with majikforce as far as the rules go but i do like the idea of doing the combat move first. as far as doing it with league play might not be the rite thing because of the rules. but that’s just my thought.

Interesting viewpoint @majikforce . I have a bit of a problem with it for the purposes of League play and play by forum in general because nothing stops you from just quitting and reloading then putting in a different buy, so long as you haven’t rolled any dice.

Nothing actually stops you from putting everything into the battle calc with purchase first. You just have to do a bit more leg work when playing online.

Personally I find this all a significant reduction in the fun in playing. Interesting that you find that part fun.

@simon33 said in League General Discussion Thread:

Interesting viewpoint @majikforce . I have a bit of a problem with it for the purposes of League play and play by forum in general because nothing stops you from just quitting and reloading then putting in a different buy, so long as you haven’t rolled any dice.

Nothing actually stops you from putting everything into the battle calc with purchase first. You just have to do a bit more leg work when playing online.

Personally I find this all a significant reduction in the fun in playing. Interesting that you find that part fun.

I think what he is saying is, he enjoys the mental challenge of it. I guess it’s sorta like in chess, how you are expected to think as far ahead as possible without touching any of the pieces. or like ditching the habit of using your fingers to count. I can see how it helps build mental muscle. I personally just about NEVER work things out in local mode, no matter how advanced and complex the situation may be. I too enjoy the sometimes very challenging mental work required in figuring out a complex turn without actually first “moving” any pieces. so with that said, I think it really does come down to a matter of preference, and hence, it currently is something that if both players like, they can agree to switching it on.

@axis-dominion Perfectly stated. And please get out of my mind!:wink:

The comments about the game designer are interesting. @kreighund . The need to purchase units before putting combat moves on the board was the first rule we house ruled out when I first started playing the game. Why is it the way it is? I can’t be first person to have felt it needed change.

@majikforce said in League General Discussion Thread:

Why should it be revisable?

In answer to this question, the Zen of Axis and Allies, is that you shouldn’t be able to change your attacks and buy based on the results of other attacks happening on the same turn, as opposed to Risk where you can do precisely that. No dice are rolled until after combat movement (except tech which happens before either), so it stands to reason that it should indeed be revisable. It has never been challenged that NCM moves are revisable in the place phase for the exact same reason.

@simon33 said in League General Discussion Thread:

The comments about the game designer are interesting. @kreighund . The need to purchase units before putting combat moves on the board was the first rule we house ruled out when I first started playing the game. Why is it the way it is? I can’t be first person to have felt it needed change.

I first came across this idea in a Young Grasshopper video. His tournament rules outlined the game phase this way to help speed up the game rounds in live tournament play. See the stage cards section. I don’t think the video exists anymore.

https://www.axisandallies.org/forums/topic/30927/grasshopper-s-g40-tournament-rules

Looking through the maps available in TripleA I thought it was already an option to play a game with combat move first as several of the maps have that in the name. I haven’t tried a game with one yet though. I presume both players have to agree ahead of time as they will both be running with that map after the game is initiated.

Is it just me, or are games lasting forever these days?

@oysteilo

Oh yeah, if it’s competitive then it’s running past R10 for sure…

I want to point out that I believe there is an error in TripleA global map. I noticed it is not possible to land units from sz126 into Finland. I believe this is a mistake because although it is small on my board there is clearly a sliver of Finland that falls into that sea zone. I have no idea who to bring this too but I noticed this while playing a couple of league games and I am afraid this will cost me. I realize I might be wrong but if that is the case I have played out of the box rules wrong for quite a while.

Anyway thanks for reading my rant. Let me know who I need petition.😉

Pretty sure that’s correct. I think Kreighund has actually ruled on it.

@simon33 that is interesting that it was brought up before. I posted a topic in the global forum as well and then someone posted a picture. The pic is grainy but I still think it shows Finland in the sea zone. Oh well. Now I know at least.

One more comment on combat move first.

I’ve noticed a couple of players objecting to the inability to post from the post panel after US/China/ANZAC turns. There’s no real reason to do this. If you want to rewind, you can just load autosave. Go to the autoSave subdirectory in your default save folder, and you’ll find a bunch of save files from the end of every move phase for every nation, and one at the end of the most recent turn.