Game History
Round: 1 Purchase Units - Germans Germans buy 1 carrier, 1 destroyer and 1 submarine; Remaining resources: 0 PUs; Trigger Germans 6 Atlantic Wall Broken Switch: Setting switch to false for conditionAttachment_Germans_6_Atlantic_Wall_Possible_Switch attached to Germans Combat Move - Germans 1 armour, 1 artillery and 2 infantry moved from Holland Belgium to Normandy Bordeaux 1 mech_infantry moved from Western Germany to Normandy Bordeaux 3 armour and 3 mech_infantrys moved from Austria to France 1 artillery, 3 infantry and 1 mech_infantry moved from Western Germany to France 2 armour, 1 artillery and 3 infantry moved from Holland Belgium to France 1 fighter moved from Norway to 114 Sea Zone 1 tactical_bomber moved from Germany to 114 Sea Zone 1 battleship moved from 116 Sea Zone to 114 Sea Zone 1 bomber moved from Germany to 114 Sea Zone 1 submarine moved from 127 Sea Zone to 114 Sea Zone 1 submarine moved from 121 Sea Zone to 114 Sea Zone 1 submarine moved from 120 Sea Zone to 109 Sea Zone 1 submarine moved from 111 Sea Zone to 109 Sea Zone 1 submarine moved from 111 Sea Zone to 113 Sea Zone 1 submarine moved from 106 Sea Zone to 113 Sea Zone 1 bomber moved from Germany to 113 Sea Zone 1 fighter moved from Holland Belgium to 113 Sea Zone 2 fighters and 4 tactical_bombers moved from Western Germany to 113 Sea Zone 2 artilleries and 6 infantry moved from Austria to Yugoslavia 1 armour and 2 infantry moved from Slovakia Hungary to Yugoslavia 1 armour and 1 infantry moved from Romania to Yugoslavia 1 armour and 1 fighter moved from Poland to Yugoslavia Combat - Germans Battle in Yugoslavia Germans attack with 3 armour, 2 artilleries, 1 fighter and 9 infantry Neutral_Allies defend with 5 infantry Germans win, taking Yugoslavia from Neutral_Allies with 3 armour, 2 artilleries, 1 fighter and 9 infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 15 Casualties for Neutral_Allies: 5 infantry Battle in Normandy Bordeaux Germans attack with 1 armour, 1 artillery, 2 infantry and 1 mech_infantry French defend with 1 artillery, 1 factory_minor, 1 harbour and 1 infantry Germans win, taking Normandy Bordeaux from French with 1 armour, 1 artillery, 2 infantry and 1 mech_infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 7 Casualties for French: 1 artillery and 1 infantry Battle in 114 Sea Zone Germans attack with 1 battleship, 1 bomber, 1 fighter, 2 submarines and 1 tactical_bomber British defend with 1 battleship, 1 cruiser and 1 destroyer Units damaged: 1 battleship owned by the British Units damaged: 1 battleship owned by the Germans Germans win with 1 battleship, 1 bomber, 1 fighter, 1 submarine and 1 tactical_bomber remaining. Battle score for attacker is 31 Casualties for Germans: 1 submarine Casualties for British: 1 battleship, 1 cruiser and 1 destroyer Battle in 109 Sea Zone Germans attack with 2 submarines British defend with 1 destroyer and 1 transport Germans win, taking 109 Sea Zone from Neutral with 2 submarines remaining. Battle score for attacker is 14 Casualties for British: 1 destroyer and 1 transport Battle in 113 Sea Zone Germans attack with 1 bomber, 3 fighters, 2 submarines and 4 tactical_bombers British defend with 1 battleship and 1 cruiser; French defend with 1 cruiser Units damaged: 1 battleship owned by the British Germans win with 1 bomber, 3 fighters and 3 tactical_bombers remaining. Battle score for attacker is 18 Casualties for Germans: 2 submarines and 1 tactical_bomber Casualties for French: 1 cruiser Casualties for British: 1 battleship and 1 cruiser Battle in France Germans attack with 5 armour, 2 artilleries, 6 infantry and 4 mech_infantrys British defend with 1 armour and 1 artillery; French defend with 1 aaGun, 1 airfield, 1 armour, 1 artillery, 1 factory_major, 1 fighter and 6 infantry Germans captures 19PUs while taking French capital Germans converts factory_major into different units Germans win, taking France from French with 5 armour and 4 mech_infantrys remaining. Battle score for attacker is 27 Casualties for Germans: 2 artilleries and 6 infantry Casualties for French: 1 aaGun, 1 armour, 1 artillery, 1 fighter and 6 infantry Casualties for British: 1 armour and 1 artillery Trigger Germans Conquer France: Setting switch to true for conditionAttachment_French_1_Liberation_Switch attached to French triggerFrenchDestroyPUsGermans: Setting destroysPUs to true for playerAttachment attached to French Non Combat Move - Germans 1 cruiser and 1 transport moved from 117 Sea Zone to 115 Sea Zone 3 infantry moved from Norway to Finland Germans take Finland from Neutral_Axis 2 infantry moved from Denmark to 115 Sea Zone 2 infantry moved from 115 Sea Zone to Norway 1 aaGun, 3 artilleries and 11 infantry moved from Germany to Poland 1 infantry moved from Romania to Bulgaria Germans take Bulgaria from Neutral_Axis 1 fighter moved from Yugoslavia to Southern Italy 1 fighter and 1 tactical_bomber moved from 114 Sea Zone to 115 Sea Zone 1 bomber moved from 114 Sea Zone to Western Germany 1 bomber, 3 fighters and 3 tactical_bombers moved from 113 Sea Zone to Western Germany 1 aaGun moved from Germany to Slovakia Hungary 1 aaGun moved from Holland Belgium to Normandy Bordeaux 1 aaGun moved from Western Germany to Holland Belgium Place Units - Germans 1 carrier, 1 destroyer and 1 submarine placed in 115 Sea Zone Turning on Edit Mode EDIT: Removing units owned by Germans from 114 Sea Zone: 1 submarine EDIT: Removing units owned by Germans from 114 Sea Zone: 1 battleship EDIT: Adding units owned by Germans to 115 Sea Zone: 1 battleship EDIT: Changing unit hit damage for these Germans owned units to: battleship = 1 EDIT: Turning off Edit Mode Turn Complete - Germans Germans collect 41 PUs; end with 60 PUs Trigger Germans 5 Swedish Iron Ore: Germans met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 65 PUs Objective Germans 1 Trade with Russia: Germans met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 70 PUsLeague General Discussion Thread
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@Stucifer I find it fascinating that we probably only have a decade before a good AI is developed for Axis and Allies, one that can consistently beat the top players. Even an AI that can identify all major weaknesses 3 turns ahead would be a massive tool to take gameplay to a much higher level. Moscow falling a turn earlier is a game changer.
Chess has mostly managed to keep their top ranks honest, but I don’t think we will be able to maintain the League for very much longer. We are counting down the days of top human players.
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I agree. The one I use seems to now have learning mode on now. I talked A&A 6 months ago and it didn’t know much. Now it does. A lot.
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Counterpoint:
AI might be able to make the “best moves”, but being a dice game and not chess, it cannot “always win”, unlike a chess supercomputer.In chess, there is no unknown outcome. Taking a piece will always result in taking the piece. That is not true in Axis & Allies, and never will be.
One of my friends’ dads used to play chess with a guy that was ranked. The dad could only win when the other guy was drunk (which was frequently enough).
Chess is a game where the better player, if better enough, ALWAYS wins. A&A as this entire thread has been discussing, is thankfully not. I play A&A in part because I find games where I can lose to someone “worse” than me at the game and I can win against someone more skilled to be more enjoyable, personally.
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And if the promised AI productivity boom actually materializes we should all have more free time and money to travel and reconstitute the league as an over the board league. Stucifer presciently already has the PTV board printed for us.
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@Stucifer said in Post League Game Results Here:
I will say if I was playing PtV low luck I can’t imagine Axis would get a bid. I would definitely want a bid to play Allies. I believe with a 0 bid you can be at 100% odds for Sealion on G3 with a naval buy G1 (CV, DD, tp) and 11-transport buy G2.
That’s with UK bringing the Gibraltar + Malta fighter back and building 18 infantry + a fighter for London.
This seems like a fairly damning assessment of ptv. Someone might want to think about a version 2.
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yep, in ptv SL is much easier, i got it 3 in a row and almost a 4th but stu decided it wasn’t worth it.
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@crockett36 said in Post League Game Results Here:
@Stucifer said in Post League Game Results Here:
I will say if I was playing PtV low luck I can’t imagine Axis would get a bid. I would definitely want a bid to play Allies. I believe with a 0 bid you can be at 100% odds for Sealion on G3 with a naval buy G1 (CV, DD, tp) and 11-transport buy G2.
That’s with UK bringing the Gibraltar + Malta fighter back and building 18 infantry + a fighter for London.
This seems like a fairly damning assessment of ptv. Someone might want to think about a version 2.
More of a damning assessment of LL IMO. PTV is by far the most balanced and dynamic of the the 3 global variants.
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@crockett36 said in Post League Game Results Here:
This seems like a fairly damning assessment of ptv. Someone might want to think about a version 2.
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing but did not want to comment as I have only played PTV once and it was a very early version of PTV. I know it changed dramatically after that.
If the game seems balanced as some are saying here, even with the fall of London, that is probably due to a strong Russia.
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@AndrewAAGamer said in Post League Game Results Here:
@crockett36 said in Post League Game Results Here:
This seems like a fairly damning assessment of ptv. Someone might want to think about a version 2.
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing but did not want to comment as I have only played PTV once and it was a very early version of PTV. I know it changed dramatically after that.
If the game seems balanced as some are saying here, even with the fall of London, that is probably due to a strong Russia.
in my experience so far with SL, and i might have more experience with it than anyone else so far lol, russia in OOB/BM makes significantly more progress against G than in ptv… seems like G is able to push the russians back out of europe at some point. maybe others have had different experiences and disagree, or maybe i’m doing something wrong, but that’s what i’m finding. i remember in most of my global sea lions my russia would just kick ass and become unstoppable
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OOB and BM both have vastly higher bids in favor of Allies though. Apples to apples PTV is the most balanced and maybe there needs to be an adjustment to the bid but that’s an indictment of the players, not the game.
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@mikawagunichi said in Post League Game Results Here:
OOB and BM both have vastly higher bids in favor of Allies though. Apples to apples PTV is the most balanced and maybe there needs to be an adjustment to the bid but that’s an indictment of the players, not the game.
Not a huge sample size and I’m not going to stand behind it, but this week as you probably know, I tallied the last 18 months of PTV in the league and the Allies are ROMPING.
Just because the players’ perception is the Axis need about 10 or 12 doesn’t mean it’s accurate. The actual results show that the Axis have won 42%, again, the past 18 months.
With my point being not that 42% is really very accurate, but my point being that the jury is very much out, on whether PtV is “the most balanced”
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@gamerman01 How much would the average PTV bid need to change in order to exceed average BM bid? (In absolute value)
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@mikawagunichi Only about 15, at the most
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as axis in ptv, i have found strong european naval presence, supporting italy to take gib and egypt, has been the most effective so far. i did this against adam in both games i played him so far and in both games i was winning. the first i ended up losing as my japanese play was on the weaker side and made some bad decisions and got punished by the dice, with adam taking advantage of these weaknesses and opportunities by swinging his european navy and spamming subs. in the second one it was very similar but i played a much stronger japan so i moved on to win that one.
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and btw in that first game i won several major battles on the europe side including smashing his entire atlantic navy at gib, and i thought for sure i would win, but allies in ptv are definitely more resilient.
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the third and most recent game between us i got sea lion’ed, but i ended up having a substaintial > 700 tuv lead and felt i had the advantage, but his axis was still strong and continued making gains… there were some blunders and we had some disagreements that we couldn’t settle so just ended up scrapping the game. but it was a fun one, but also very long one with no end in sight.
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I’m wondering if we examined the elo of the top 10, would we discover that they played and play the Axis plus 65 percent of the time.
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Man I think PTV players would be tripping over themselves to play axis at +18. 3 TPs/subs
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Path to Victory, right?
I just added up Ghostglider, Adam514, General Disarray, Axis Dominion, 666, Peirce, and ArtofWar. FOR THE PAST 18 MONTHS ONLY
In total they took Allies 39 times, Axis 31
General D wants the Allies and took them 6 times and Axis only 1
Peirce wants Axis and took them 6 times and Axis 0
So those two offset.
About bids for PtV, and it being the most “balanced” because of small bids chosen:
We don’t have enough sample size, not even close, to make any conclusions about what a proper bid should be.
Most of the games completed over the past 18 months should be thrown out of consideration because the stronger player almost always wins. I’m seeing that no matter what side is taken by who, the stronger player wins - almost always.
The rest of the games, which are few, just don’t tell you anything about bids because there are waaaaay too many other variables. -
The 42% Axis statistic I dropped last week, and the fancy colored bar graph in the statistics section of the ELO rating sheet?
Horribly misleading!
How much the Axis win is largely a function of who likes to take what side. Maybe that’s what @crockett36 was looking for. Top players took Allies 39 times to 31, and, guess what, the Allies have been rolling the past 18 months.
The fact that stronger players are winning more games is not a strong indication that PtV is “balanced” close to zero.
I’m convinced that rather, it’s a strong indicator that PTV is big enough and complex enough that the results are not very sensitive to a bid.
To be clearer, I doubt that we would have much different results between a -30 bid and a -8 bid. The skill of the players and the magnitude of the game overpower it.
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