League General Discussion Thread

@AndrewAAGamer said in League General Discussion Thread:

This, I think, is a great discussion so I would like to throw in my two cents.

I think two very important points have been made… 1) People get tired of the same game over time. 2) There are some things people don’t like about OOB so they play other games.

Now, for me, the main reason I like OOB is because a) it is the official game, b) there are so many various strategies that can be used to win and 3) it is a different game every time after about Round 4; especially due to the Bid.

I guess the first question is what is it that people do not like about the current state of OOB? One thing that I have heard is the large Bid. To digress, the first time I ever played OOB we played with no Bid in our face-to-face group. Pretty soon it was a $6 Bid to take the Allies that grew over time to $12, $18, mid-twenties, thirties, forties, fifties and finally after about 5 years all the way up to $60! We had people who could not believe the Axis could win at $60, yet it did win more than it lost. Now here online there have been some very unique Bid placements that I think is going to drive that $60 down to about $50-$52. The reason I point that out is currently BM seems to be about $20-$22 so even after all the changes BM4 made OOB is only about $30 more to the Bid.

Now, again, for me I like the Bid because how the Allies choose to place their Bid makes it a different game every time. But, assuming most people do not like the large Bid, how do we decrease it without radically changing the game like BM did?

See, for me, I don’t play BM4 because it is really a different game due to all the changes. Same goes for PTV. While both may be fun and fine games there are lots of games that match that criteria on TripleA and we don’t play those.

So, back to how to clean up OOB to make it more acceptable for everyone to play without radically changing it? What is it that, besides the large Bid, people don’t like?

I think one thing is the Russia gets money from the Middle East and Africa and that seems kind of cheesy. Okay, we remove that. But that is one way Russia gets extra money so we have to make up for that or the Bid would grow even more.

The fact Germany can steamroll Russia if Russia does not get assistance from UK? Okay, so again, we need more for Russia. So, what I would suggest is something that does not radically change the game but cleans up those two points if the general feeling is Russia is too weak.

So how much does Russia need? Well, about $50 or so to match the Bid plus another $10-$15 for the loss of the Middle East and Africa. Okay — so we add 10 infantries to Russia ($30) to start the game and then give them a National Objective that as long as they hold it gives them $5 more a Turn; such as “Must hold Caucasus and Volgograd”. This would make it more worthwhile for Russia to fight for the south and even if they fail should get them at least 6-7 turns of collection for $30-$35 — Bingo plus $60-$65!

I am not saying this would eliminate any Bid, but I bet it would drive it significantly under the current BM4 Bid. For those people who are just tired of the old game I am not sure this would bring them back however, it may bring in more Players who don’t like these three issues (Large Bid, cheesy Russia NO in Africa and weak Russia.)

What are other things people don’t like about OOB???

Exactly the kind of comment I was hoping for from a top tier player! Great solution. Great temporary experimental adjustment to the bid system! Doesn’t affect turn 1 at all. Thank you Andrew.

@gamerman01 said in League General Discussion Thread:

My point in showing the statistics since the beginning of G40 is to show

1. Dwindling marginal returns no matter what game it is
2. BM breathing a lot of new life into G40 as a whole
3. PTV doing similar after BM had been out awhile.

My view is this is what happens when the world does not receive a new global Axis and Allies game in 13 years ( a child’s entire lifetime LOL). After a few years, the masses crave a new and improved, and a few years after that, the throngs cry out for a different way of taking over the world.

There are things about World War 2 that will continually draw young people in. And the views on certain YouTube channels are very encouraging. My hope is to have a channel that is a bridge between the steam 42 and reprint board game communities. And obviously somehow luring them into global oob here.

@Arthur-Bomber-Harris said in League General Discussion Thread:

@AndrewAAGamer my problem with Axis and Allies League matches is either 1) I am playing against inferior opponents and I know by turn 4 that it will be an easy win for me but I have to wait ten turns for them to inevitably concede, or 2) I am playing against superior opponents like you and I have to play through the next full turn every round to make sure I am not making a dumb mistake and also have to take a 40/60 odds battle to have a chance of winning since you will inevitably grind me into the dirt if I don’t take any risks. I spend a month to get to that huge attack on Moscow or massive battle in the Pacific, get either good or bad dice, and then either win or lose based on the outcome.

I could play low-luck matches, but then I am guaranteed to win against inferior opponents and lose against people who have better gameplay so the outcome is essentially determined from the start of the game. There probably is no solution to this general situation in 2-player matches.

I wouldn’t think yours is an unusual problem for championship winning players. Tennis for instance. The real competition is amongst the few, surrounded by the ambitious. I’d love if there was a mathematical formula for greater-lesser bid/greater-lesser difference in tier=greater lesser points.

@AndrewAAGamer since you don’t like balance mod so much i would like to point out that you can turn off nearly all the changes in the options and for the others you can use edit mode. About the only change you can’t do this for is The sbr changes. Edit mode is required for reverting the Chinese objective and for 12ipc bombers in bm4.

So mix and match to your heart’s content, although calling a game balance mod for league purposes then becomes a bit dubious.

@crockett36 there certainly are a fair number of people who have higher ELO scores than me. I have no problem finding opponents, if I wanted to be more active during the regular season.

I would estimate about 30 extra bid for every 400 Elo point difference for the top players, and 100 extra bid for bottom-tier noobs who don’t know how to use the advantage. Personally, I would rather not be gifted an advantage and instead rely on the luck of the dice.

@simon33 said in League General Discussion Thread:

@AndrewAAGamer since you don’t like balance mod so much i would like to point out that you can turn off nearly all the changes in the options and for the others you can use edit mode. About the only change you can’t do this for is The sbr changes. Edit mode is required for reverting the Chinese objective and for 12ipc bombers in bm4.

So mix and match to your heart’s content, although calling a game balance mod for league purposes then becomes a bit dubious.

I have nothing against BM4, or PTV or World at War or other games for all that. I happen to love OOB. I think it has just the right balance of simplicity, variation and nuance to be a great game. For me, I love the Bid. It makes it a different game every time. Some people go heavy China, some go heavy Russia, or heavy UK or a smattering all over the place. The point being the Axis player has to adjust their strategy based on how the Bid was used and that makes every game unique.

If I was the Ruler of the Universe and could wave a magic wand the only thing I would change is Russia getting their NO in the Middle East and Africa; otherwise it is perfect.

@AndrewAAGamer I agree with the house rule to eliminate the ME and Africa bonus for Russia. How much would that change the bid for the Allies? Another five PUs?

simple edits to out of box:

1. You may never load transports in a hostile sea zone.
2. Foreign units in Russia do not disrupt lend lease (since foreign units were gifted to Russia). Why have the rule if Russia never receives it?
3. If Germany or Italy enter any territory that was originally Russia, it is a dow. You may not receive a bonus for not being at war while standing in a conquered territory.
4. You may not convoy Russia unless at war with Russia.
   These are what I consider to be silly rules.

Easy ways to boost allied income:

1. all French territories are like allied friendly neutrals that can be taken over by allies. The troops stay French; the territories become allied owned.
2. lend lease goes all three ways: pacific, atlantic, indian. 3 or 5?

Easy ways to depress Axis income:

1. Capitals do not automatically forfeit their entire gdp. They must be surrounded in order to grab every penny. Otherwise, you only gain the ipc value of the capital.

@simon33 said in League General Discussion Thread:

@AndrewAAGamer since you don’t like balance mod so much i would like to point out that you can turn off nearly all the changes in the options and for the others you can use edit mode. About the only change you can’t do this for is The sbr changes. Edit mode is required for reverting the Chinese objective and for 12ipc bombers in bm4.

So mix and match to your heart’s content, although calling a game balance mod for league purposes then becomes a bit dubious.

Hi simon

In case you are unaware, UHD has additional Map options that can be turned on or off

bungs, which is still way cool

and UHD which has BM as an option as well

PTV has it’s own map, so, plenty of fun there too :)

@gamerman01 no Russia bonus in ME or Africa probably could be offset by capitols can be plundered only once per game, allowing the Allies to recapture India or Paris without fear such actions would have negative ramifications. I like how that is implemented in BM.

It feels stupid and unrealistic that the Axis can leave Paris unguarded, daring the Allies to liberate it.

Since this seems to be the place to toss out ideas to balance the game, I’ll add mine - Allied Advantage (based on an optional rule from the original game): Russia starts with Industrial Tech, UK starts with Radar, & US starts with War Bonds.

@barnee said in League General Discussion Thread:

In case you are unaware, UHD has additional Map options that can be turned on or off

I put half of those in to BM!!!

What is different in UHD? Just a better presented map, in someone’s opinion?

@simon33

heh heh yea you did some of them :) I did some as well. Still want to add Canada :)

Same territories OOB G40, just a different look that @Black_Elk made.

@crockett36 said in League General Discussion Thread:

You may never load transports in a hostile sea zone.

I say no problem with this rule. It’s correct the way it is. Except for the ridiculous Anzac DOW putting UK at war with Japan.

@crockett36 said in League General Discussion Thread:

Foreign units in Russia do not disrupt lend lease (since foreign units were gifted to Russia). Why have the rule if Russia never receives it?
@crockett36 said in League General Discussion Thread:
If Germany or Italy enter any territory that was originally Russia, it is a dow. You may not receive a bonus for not being at war while standing in a conquered territory.

These rules are in Balanced Mod!

@crockett36 said in League General Discussion Thread:

You may not convoy Russia unless at war with Russia.

Confused how you think this is a problem.

@crockett36 said in League General Discussion Thread:

all French territories are like allied friendly neutrals that can be taken over by allies. The troops stay French; the territories become allied owned.

I agree with this suggestion.

@crockett36 said in League General Discussion Thread:

lend lease goes all three ways: pacific, atlantic, indian. 3 or 5?

Isn’t this also in Balanced Mod!

@crockett36 said in League General Discussion Thread:

Capitals do not automatically forfeit their entire gdp. They must be surrounded in order to grab every penny. Otherwise, you only gain the ipc value of the capital.

What are you suggesting that isn’t in Balanced Mod?

@gamerman01

Since we’re discussing rule changes, one issue that often occurs especially on turn 1 is a player getting “diced” in a critical attack. In some cases, the dicing is so extreme, that player can never recover, and the result is essentially determined at that point.

Wonder if there is an appetite for each player to have the ability to re-roll 1 battle per game. It could also help compensate the tiering differential, that the lower rated player could get an additional re-roll per tier difference.

Could have some additional parameters around it as well, like the odds must have been greater than x% for a re-roll to be permitted, and/or only the attacking player has the option to exercise the re-roll, etc.