League General Discussion Thread

crockett36

@Arthur-Bomber-Harris Very good comment. I agree with everything you said. Love a large US bid because the Axis can do so much while the US is neutral. And the race–the historical race to get so much done before getting the US into the war–is on.

AndrewAAGamer

While, I agree that the game is trending to non-historical bids the whole game is non-historical.

Historically, Japan never took all of China; the loss of China occurs regularly in Global 1940.
Historically, Japan got their butt kicked in Russia in 1939 and never invaded Russia again, even allowing a major number of Siberian troops to head west to fight the Germans; while in Global 1940 it is common to see the Japanese roll up the Russian eastern flank.
Historically, Germany failed to take Moscow and even if they had the Russians would have fought on. In Global 1940 once Moscow falls, which occurs regularly, there are no further reinforcements which makes a huge difference in the game vs real life.
Historically, the British never lost their Home fleet and always had supremacy on the water in capital ships. In Global 1940, with no Bid, it is common to see virtually the entire British Home fleet sunk on G1.
Historically, the U-boat threat was a major factor in the war; Global 1940 does not reflect that aspect of the war well at all.
And, as we all know, the IPCs should dramatically increase for the US if the game was to try and reflect the real war.

So, for me I don’t really care if the game is historical or not. The game is a WW2 themed game; it is not a historical recreation.

Now, if the goal is to create a more historical game, I think that was the goal of BM4. But, if you want to try the same thing with a Bid for OOB then a few things have to happen.

1. Russia would not be allowed to move into China to support Yunnan. Having Russian forces in China is completely ahistorical.
1. Additional defensive troops would have to be added to slow the progress of the Axis forces but not enough to be able to advance against the Axis. These troops would be infantry and placed further out to not affect the initial Axis attacks.
  a. 3 infantries in London
  b. 3 infantries in Tsinghai
  c. 3 infantries in West India
  d. 6 infantries in Evenkiyskiy
  e. $75 in IPCs to the US not to be spent until the US is at war
  f. Total adjusted Bid = $120

Having not tested this I would think it would need adjustment but the goal would be to make it harder for the Axis to take India, knock out China completely, take Moscow and provide a larger threat of the US coming into the war thus most likely removing a J1 from the game.

crockett36

crockett36

@crockett36 besides the small error about Soviet support for China, I completely agree with you the nature of the game. A great adjustment to the setup. Really concrete stuff.

Stucifer

My limited understanding was that it was a lot like the Spanish Civil War where there were some attachés/advisors sent and a lot of equipment but not actual regiments.

I read a bit and discovered there was a significant Soviet Volunteer force, similar to the Flying Tigers but far greater in number. The Kuomintang had been whittled down to 100 outdated airplanes by the time they arrived and the Soviets made a big impact on morale and developed combat tactics that would be taught by Gen. Chennault of the Flying Tiger volunteers. The unit was withdrawn sometime after the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact was signed in 1939, but the USSR continued to supply the Chinese with aircraft until the German invasion in 1941.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Volunteer_Group

mikawagunichi

I also think for the purpose of the game, historical units need to meet certain qualitative and quantitative thresholds to be part of the game’s unit set. Single units are meant to represent entire divisions, squadrons etc. And since units have the same characteristics for every country, quality is represented via quantity. Therefore, small and/or obsolete things that may have existed historically do not meet the threshold to exist in the game.

gamerman01

@Stucifer said in League General Discussion Thread:

I read a bit and discovered there was a significant Soviet Volunteer force, similar to the Flying Tigers but far greater in number. The Kuomintang had been whittled down to 100 outdated airplanes by the time they arrived and the Soviets made a big impact on morale and developed combat tactics that would be taught by Gen. Chennault of the Flying Tiger volunteers.

I wonder what differences there would be on the map if a Russian and his worldview would set up the map.

gamerman01

GovZ has been hard at work again double checking ELO entries.

Along with a few errors caught, he found that September 2020 was not entered by our volunteers.

I entered September, and I think the most notable change is
2 wins of @JDOW over the great Trulpen.
JDOW rose 18 points in the overall standings, so
he is still in 3rd place all time, but now
only 2 points behind #2 and
18 points out of #1

That puts him a lot closer in Axis Dominion and Adam’s rear-view mirrors and harder to catch for all the rest of us

All other disturbances in the force are much smaller I think. You can put your name in the “results” tab and look at September 2020 to see if you had a win or loss during that time

gamerman01

@gamerman01 said in League General Discussion Thread:

All other disturbances in the force are much smaller I think. You can put your name in the “results” tab and look at September 2020 to see if you had a win or loss during that time

One other notable result involving active players, I think, is a Simon33 upset of @Pejon_88 after Mr. Johnson suffered a beating when he attacked Moscow G6 with 88% odds.

gamerman01

Only 2 points down on overall standings for @Pejon_88 because so many games since then, but I bet he remembers that one.

axis-dominion

@gamerman01 said in League General Discussion Thread:

GovZ has been hard at work again double checking ELO entries.

Along with a few errors caught, he found that September 2020 was not entered by our volunteers.

I entered September, and I think the most notable change is
2 wins of @JDOW over the great Trulpen.
JDOW rose 18 points in the overall standings, so
he is still in 3rd place all time, but now
only 2 points behind #2 and
18 points out of #1

That puts him a lot closer in Axis Dominion and Adam’s rear-view mirrors and harder to catch for all the rest of us

All other disturbances in the force are much smaller I think. You can put your name in the “results” tab and look at September 2020 to see if you had a win or loss during that time

so somehow JDOW is still climbing up despite being retired, now that’s impressive lol

gamerman01

One of those 2 unrecorded results, he walloped the great trulpen and I glimpsed that @JDOW practically gave up after a miserable G1, then wrestled a victory, over about 18 rounds, right out of the crocodile’s jaws…

He may not be playing right now, but most of us know he can’t stay away from A&A

Arthur Bomber Harris

@AndrewAAGamer another major adjustment would be restricting the number of non-Russian allied units in Russia. It does not seem reasonable that the US or UK could support a massive number of planes or armies with supply lines that far, and Stalin would not have approved.

While I am on the dream list, I would like a type of Russian and Chinese partisan unit with an attack of 0 and defense of 1 that costs 1 and a half PUs. That would give a wall of defensive troops that could protect the homeland but cannot easily counter attack.

Then our mods go on and on until we have a 500 page rulebook, a hex-based map that takes an entire basement, and a monstrosity that takes a couple years to complete.

crockett36

crockett36

Total Russian production 157000

crockett36

By comparison they produced about 99000 armor vehicles. I

crockett36

@crockett36 Stalin takes them over next turn!!

surfer

@Arthur-Bomber-Harris With all due respect to the nationalities involved and the luminaries on this forum, building a fully accurate WWII simulator would be boring. The outcome of every game would be predetermined. Why play a game where you know you will lose (Axis) or win (Allies)?

The Russians had way more people under arms (or more accurately had plans to arm and train more people) than the Germans realized. And the Americans could produce more of everything than the Axis could hope to compete with.

The beauty of Axis and Allies is that it abstracts the basic conflict of WWII while incorporating rules that allow the Axis to win so that you have a fun game.

Now, sometimes the balance of the game is overly favorable for the Axis and perhaps that makes people wonder if WWII could have come out differently. Sure, but only if you constrain the basic 2 facts relating to the Russians and the Americans overwhelming advantages. Any “realistic” simulator will simply reinforce the importance of those advantages to the outcome of the war.

I am not saying the outcome of WWII was predetermined in 1940 for the Axis to lose. But only if they were to change their political goal. The main goal can not be takeover of Russia–expand territory, but then draw defensive line and make the Russians sue for peace. If you simulator allows for different political situations, then this could be possible.

In a death match of Fascism vs the world, the Axis will lose.

crockett36

I understand and concur with what you’re saying. However, the bid system is of our making this has made it so that the axis have an advantage even when the allies are given a bid, what Arthur bomber hair is called the winners curse .therefore those who care about winning Are incentivize to specialize on the axis and axis strategy. This thread discussion is how would we make it so that the bid would actually go to the axis. And then I would believe we would see a flowering of Oob see different things making the game more interesting giving the game new life and pairing up with history a little better. And who better to do that than our champions who probably know the game better than anyone in the world?

gamerman01

Need to highlight a rule, because TripleA doesn’t follow it and it makes a difference.

I’ve been playing new to me players lately, and more than one veteran of the league exclaimed that he’s never been aware of this rule, so I need to announce it.

This is noted in the TripleA game notes, under “general rules for all A&A games that the engine does not do, but you must follow”:

(NA) Each phase of combat should have all units in that phase fire before any casualty selection occurs, whereas right now in TripleA if air and subs are involved then units might be broken up into smaller groups and casualty selection done for each group.

NA means there is No Available fix for this yet
To do it right you have to roll on forum, or sometimes it’s possible to avoid this by giving your opponent the opportunity to go back and change a choice he didn’t have to choose. If it’s one or two hits and casualties are being demanded out of turn, and it’s obvious what they’ll take, like a hit to the battleship, you can sometimes avoid going to roll by forum. Details on how to roll on forum are below.

Put another way, Triple A is sure to do surprise strikes correctly and to keep subs from hitting planes, and planes without destroyers from hitting subs. That is great, but 2 errors remain:

The engine requires a casualty choice from sub hits when there is a (enemy) destroyer present. Step 2 of the rulebook for surprise strikes does not apply when a (enemy) destroyer is present because surprise strike capabilities are stuffed by a destroyer. You may have SIGNIFICANTLY different battle results if you think a player has to choose sub casualties and lock those in before seeing all the rest of the attack dice.
(Of course this is the case with surprise strikes, but when the other side (could be attacker or defender) has a destroyer, there is no surprise strike, there is no separate casualty choice)
The engine requires a casualty choice after rolling for planes only, when those planes do not have an accompanying destroyer. While it is necessary to roll planes separately to distinguish eligible casualty choices (can’t be subs), the opponent does not choose any casualty choices until ALL the dice are rolled.

It is unfortunate that a side-effect of rolling by forum is the detailed dice and casualty history is not in Triple A (but if you want round by round casualties to be in the history, you could always use game notes), but it will be saved on the forum.
The upside is, you can roll the dice old-school, like all 1’s, then all 2’s, seeing the results come in pieces at a time instead of the overwhelming screen of black and red dice all at once 😏

Here is the syntax for rolling dice on the forum in a way that automatically counts your hits.

[dice Xd6<=4|
Where both sides are brackets. I ended with a “pipe” symbol so that the forum won’t think I’m trying to actually roll dice.

Where the “X” is the number of dice to roll, d6 means six-sided die, and <=4 will count all dice rolled that were a 4 or less.

You will enjoy another benefit. Triple A is having you wait for casualty choices from your opponent potentially 2 times per round when you would really only have to wait for 1.

Example:
If I am terrorizing your fleet with 10 subs and 10 bombers, and you have 5 subs, 5 destroyers, and 3 scrambled fighters,
The Triple A engine will correctly roll the 5 defending subs first and the attacker has to choose the surprise strike casualties.
Then the engine will roll the surviving attack subs (10 minus those sunk) but not the bombers and this part is incorrect. TripleA will stop and require casualty choices for the sub hits, so the defender would choose a combination of subs and destroyers. Then TripleA will roll 10 bombers and ask for casualty choice again. The attacking subs and bombers should all be rolled before the defender chooses ANY casualties.
If you circumvent TripleAs error and roll by forum, you could roll all 20 attacking units (less subs lost to defenders’ surprise strikes) and ask for a choice a single time.

The other TripleA error is with defending planes that don’t have a destroyer on their side.
Great example - raid on Zone97 on UK1.
UK attacks with fleet and air, Italy defends with 2 cruisers, battleship, and perhaps 3 scrambled fighters.
After the UK dice, TripleA will roll 3 dice for fighters, and if there is a hit, stop and require a casualty choice from the Allied player. This is absolutely incorrect, the Allied player doesn’t have to choose anything until he sees the rolls from the 3 ships also, then assigns hits accordingly. He can’t choose a (bid) sub to scrambled fighter hits.

Clear as mud? Follow up questions!

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