I enter my thoughts into this discussion hesitantly. I feel that as a newcomer, I do not have the same investment in time and emotion as those, especially in the top tier that are in the play offs, have. So I am not trying to say one way or another what the answer should be.
The only comment I have is about trying to get new players in the league, and as I am one of those, maybe my 2 cents in that subject might matter. And in that regard, I feel as though all three games should be in the same league, regardless on how the play-off issue is decided. If there are separate leagues, then the community and the number of available opponents will shrink. And the intimidation factor for a new player to join what might be perceived as an “elite” league due to experienced players playing that particular version more would keep people away. That is something the points per game based on the tiers of the respective players handles very well, while still allowing exposure to multiple versions of the game, a varied group of players with varying skill levels, none of whom I currently feel I can’t play against. Which keeps things interesting for those in, and might snag more of those just starting (I know it did for me).
I would probably have not tried either BM or PTV if they weren’t in this league - at least not this year. And since joining the league, merely 3 months ago, I have bounced between all three.
Again - I am not trying to add anything to the discussion of the play-offs, but just the direction of the league in general. I don’t think making separate leagues for each version will do the community any favors.
Well said…and I for one, agree
@mainah said in League General Discussion Thread:
I enter my thoughts into this discussion hesitantly. I feel that as a newcomer, I do not have the same investment in time and emotion as those, especially in the top tier that are in the play offs, have. So I am not trying to say one way or another what the answer should be.
The only comment I have is about trying to get new players in the league, and as I am one of those, maybe my 2 cents in that subject might matter. And in that regard, I feel as though all three games should be in the same league, regardless on how the play-off issue is decided. If there are separate leagues, then the community and the number of available opponents will shrink. And the intimidation factor for a new player to join what might be perceived as an “elite” league due to experienced players playing that particular version more would keep people away. That is something the points per game based on the tiers of the respective players handles very well, while still allowing exposure to multiple versions of the game, a varied group of players with varying skill levels, none of whom I currently feel I can’t play against. Which keeps things interesting for those in, and might snag more of those just starting (I know it did for me).
I would probably have not tried either BM or PTV if they weren’t in this league - at least not this year. And since joining the league, merely 3 months ago, I have bounced between all three.
Again - I am not trying to add anything to the discussion of the play-offs, but just the direction of the league in general. I don’t think making separate leagues for each version will do the community any favors.
@ksmckay said in League General Discussion Thread:
We already have an 8 game minimum for top playoff bracket. Maybe we could expand requirement to 8 total games, and then minimum 3 to sign up for the playoff.
So if you played 3 games P2V, 3 games OOB, and 3 games BM3 you could play in all three or if you played half p2V have BM3 you could sign up for those but not the OOB. So then to participate in the tourney you actually have had to play the given game in the league that year a few times.
I think one League but multiple Playoffs would work. I think having a minimum number of games of a certain version to play in that Playoff also makes sense. I would agree with @ksmckay that three games of a particular version seems reasonable.
If a Player played at least 9 games; 3 of each version, then sure let them participate in all three Playoffs, or more if we do AA50. :)
If we have more than 8 people wanting to play a certain version we could just add a second tier like we do now. Certainly we may end up with 1 Playoff of OOB and 1 Playoff of PtV and 2 Playoffs of BM3 and one final Playoff of AA50. If that is too much work than I would volunteer to help keep track of one or more Playoffs to help expand the playing options of the Club.
The only downside I see is the one already expressed by @ksmckay below…
@ksmckay said in League General Discussion Thread:
But Id certainly be in favor of multiple tourneys. Perhaps there is the littlest bit of presige associated with league champion and that would be dulled or debated, but I think the best thing about the tournament is that it pits the best against the best in a best-of-one format.
Good discussion, I enjoy all posts.
We can do a separate ranking for P2V in 2021, no problem - probably should. Maybe we should do a separate ranking for OOB as well for 2021. Yes we do have a player who strongly prefers OOB in the top 8 and yes it puts others at a huge disadvantage who haven’t played it in years.
Up til now, it has made a lot of sense to have a default version in the league rules that also applies to the playoffs. The biggest reason being that one league (one standings) together keeps more players together and maximizes number of completed games. Makes sense to have a default version for if players can’t agree what version of the game they want to play, and everyone should know what that default version is, all year.
But now we have a bigger disparity in versions, and more versions, than usual. Pretty big differences between OOB, BM, and PTV. And others could come along, of course.
ksmckay is correct in saying the league belongs to the players - the moderator’s role is to play judge and facilitate the community’s wishes.
I am a firm believer in following the rules that have been established and understood and agreed upon, therefore the 2020 playoffs are absolutely governed by the league rules posted 1 year ago, no debate.
2021 league rules are on the table. I would propose that there are 3 different standings kept for 2021, being OOB, BM, and P2V and the league rules will be changed to reflect this. Any other version that comes up during the year or is played outside of these 3 versions (with BM and P2V including different iterations under those umbrellas) would need to be addressed too. Do they not count in the league - so basically not allowed? For example, you couldn’t really play AA50 or Spring 1942 or A&A&Zombies in 2020 and expect to have it counted in the league here.
The preceding paragraph is for you all to agree, disagree, discuss, or amend.
Note: I just saw there were a lot of posts in the past couple hours that I hadn’t seen yet. I will read them now, but the preceding post I just made was without reading all those posts
OK, great! Great discussion, I mean.
Not a bad idea to have separate playoff brackets for separate versions - not a bad idea at all - but I think I have a better one!
It’s no trouble for me to maintain 3 different standings sheets for 2021. Therefore, I’m confident the majority will agree that for 2021 we will still have 1 league together (shared results thread, shared discussion thread, shared everything) but with a separate standings and PPG calculation by version, which is actually what I was saying before I read the last 2-3 hours worth of posts. There will be a league champion playoff for each of the 3 different versions.
Again, this is a proposal and you all can shoot it down (with radar enabled AA guns), but surely this will be the most popular idea, no?? :)
Oh, and as far as the current brackets, I’m sorry but we can’t implement the different versions/different playoffs idea right now for the 2020 playoffs because the rules have been set all year.
@gamerman01 said in League General Discussion Thread:
OK, great! Great discussion, I mean.
Not a bad idea to have separate playoff brackets for separate versions - not a bad idea at all - but I think I have a better one!
It’s no trouble for me to maintain 3 different standings sheets for 2021. Therefore, I’m confident the majority will agree that for 2021 we will still have 1 league together (shared results thread, shared discussion thread, shared everything) but with a separate standings and PPG calculation by version, which is actually what I was saying before I read the last 2-3 hours worth of posts. There will be a league champion playoff for each of the 3 different versions.
Again, this is a proposal and you all can shoot it down, but surely this will be the most popular idea, no?? :)
If you, ye great keymaster, can handle it, it sounds like heaven!
@gamerman01 said in League General Discussion Thread:
Oh, and as far as the current brackets, I’m sorry but we can’t implement the different versions/different playoffs idea right now for the 2020 playoffs because the rules have been set all year.
It’s rational and ok. I’m sure we’ll survive this as well.
@gamerman01 said in League General Discussion Thread:
separate standings and PPG calculation by version
LOVE IT!!! THANK YOU @gamerman01 for doing the extra work to make this happen!
Two questions. 1) Would the overall minimum to qualify for any Playoff still be 8+ games and 2) would there be a minimum number of games needed in any one version to qualify for that Playoff? Such as 3?
Thanks for hearing us out gamer, that works for me!
@gamerman01 said in League General Discussion Thread:
OK, great! Great discussion, I mean.
Not a bad idea to have separate playoff brackets for separate versions - not a bad idea at all - but I think I have a better one!
It’s no trouble for me to maintain 3 different standings sheets for 2021. Therefore, I’m confident the majority will agree that for 2021 we will still have 1 league together (shared results thread, shared discussion thread, shared everything) but with a separate standings and PPG calculation by version, which is actually what I was saying before I read the last 2-3 hours worth of posts. There will be a league champion playoff for each of the 3 different versions.
Again, this is a proposal and you all can shoot it down (with radar enabled AA guns), but surely this will be the most popular idea, no?? :)
@AndrewAAGamer I agree that 8+ league games overall should qualify you for the playoffs in general, but in order to be in a particular tourney, you should have invested some time, and 3+ games sounds reasonable in order to compete in that particular flavor, whether it be OOB, BM3, or PTV
How would you seed people in individual playoffs?
I think if someone could figure out a way to make separate rankings for everything that would feed a master ranking sheet, not sure how it would work or if its possible or how much work/math needs to go into making that but just an idea.
I am glad about this discussion.
All though I dont play OOB any more I agree with Gamerman. I am legalist. So, the rules that were set up for 2020 must be implemented. But since OOB is rarely played, I dont see a big problem even in this play off.
As for 2021 we need to set up the rules ASAP.
I am glad that we agree that PTV needs its own league. Its a totally different game.
As for OOB, I suggest that it stays in the same league with BM. And that we have 2 play offs, PTV one and BM + OOB one.
In BM + OOB play off there would be BM as the standard version since its played from the majority of players
To paraphrase AD (the game that had more games that season is the standard in the play offs).
Only if the OOB dudes want to have a separate league and play off we can make it, but we have to decide it ASAP, not in december.
as for the number of games required to qualify for the play offs,
i think that 8 is definitely too much,5 would be ok, maybe to limit to play 2 games per opponent instead of 3.
So 3-5 games as the play off minimum, or 8 games all together,
but i am not a fan of joint condition, i would make each league separated (but since both BM and PTV are very popular) maybe 5 games is ok for each of them,
or 8 games combined, minimum 3 per league,
but in my opinion, i wouldnt do that combine condition
i would threat each league separately, and since we have 2 leagues then, 5 games per league seems ok so u can play in both play offs
and the reason i think OOB doesnt need its own league is that BM is dominant over OOB. And i doubt that there will be much interest for BM and PTV players to play a third playoff.
Even some OOB dudes will maybe go for PTV only or something like that.
i suggest we patch OOB with BM, but if the OOB guys want their own league, fine by me.
Awesome. Glad you have come around @gamerman01. So one league but 3 standings.
OOB is less popular so may need playoffs decided based on top 4? Perhaps a rider to allow that to be decided at the end of the year? Will it still be 8 game minimum in all games? Probably fine in BM and P2V. Should it be BM4 (14 IPC bombers) as standard? House rules can blur the lines but I guess it is pretty unlikely that it won’t be clear what the nearest game is.
@simon33 said in League General Discussion Thread:
Awesome. Glad you have come around @gamerman01. So one league but 3 standings.
OOB is less popular so may need playoffs decided based on top 4? Perhaps a rider to allow that to be decided at the end of the year? Will it still be 8 game minimum in all games? Probably fine in BM and P2V. Should it be BM4 (14 IPC bombers) as standard? House rules can blur the lines but I guess it is pretty unlikely that it won’t be clear what the nearest game is.
when i say 2 leagues i mean 2 standings.
the topic for discussion can stay one for all.
@simon33 said in League General Discussion Thread:
Awesome. Glad you have come around @gamerman01. So one league but 3 standings.
OOB is less popular so may need playoffs decided based on top 4? Perhaps a rider to allow that to be decided at the end of the year? Will it still be 8 game minimum in all games? Probably fine in BM and P2V. Should it be BM4 (14 IPC bombers) as standard? House rules can blur the lines but I guess it is pretty unlikely that it won’t be clear what the nearest game is.
i think boms cost 14 should be standard to prevent bomber spam. but it is a democracy, we BM dudes can vote.
@majikforce said in League General Discussion Thread:
Is OOB so bad that you could never possibly get a win? I doubt that very much.
Actually, it is. More or less.
Just take our game in the tourney as an example. We got a huge bid of 56 for Allies and I’ve thought on several occasions that the Allies were crushing it (for instance getting an early firm hold of both Spain and Scandinavia), but Axis still seem to be winning. I’m amazed.
Of course, you are likely better players than we are, but it has atleast partly to do with a pretty bad rule-set regarding i e re-conquering capitals, the easy China-conquest, slightly easier winning-conditions and significantly lower NOs/income for the Allies. All of which is favourably addressed by BM3.
I also had a playoff-game in the previous season where I was forced to play OOB. I’m not an awfully bad player, but was annihilated as Allies with a 28-bid. Having played a lot of BM3 during that season, all I could feel for OOB was contempt (as well as for my rotten play).
In my book it’s really pretty much OOBsolete, but I won’t haunt those who still love that version. ;)
