Game History
Round: 1 Purchase Units - Germans Germans buy 1 carrier, 1 destroyer and 1 submarine; Remaining resources: 0 PUs; Trigger Germans 6 Atlantic Wall Broken Switch: Setting switch to false for conditionAttachment_Germans_6_Atlantic_Wall_Possible_Switch attached to Germans Combat Move - Germans 1 armour, 1 artillery and 2 infantry moved from Holland Belgium to Normandy Bordeaux 1 mech_infantry moved from Western Germany to Normandy Bordeaux 3 armour and 3 mech_infantrys moved from Austria to France 1 artillery, 3 infantry and 1 mech_infantry moved from Western Germany to France 2 armour, 1 artillery and 3 infantry moved from Holland Belgium to France 1 fighter moved from Norway to 114 Sea Zone 1 tactical_bomber moved from Germany to 114 Sea Zone 1 battleship moved from 116 Sea Zone to 114 Sea Zone 1 bomber moved from Germany to 114 Sea Zone 1 submarine moved from 127 Sea Zone to 114 Sea Zone 1 submarine moved from 121 Sea Zone to 114 Sea Zone 1 submarine moved from 120 Sea Zone to 109 Sea Zone 1 submarine moved from 111 Sea Zone to 109 Sea Zone 1 submarine moved from 111 Sea Zone to 113 Sea Zone 1 submarine moved from 106 Sea Zone to 113 Sea Zone 1 bomber moved from Germany to 113 Sea Zone 1 fighter moved from Holland Belgium to 113 Sea Zone 2 fighters and 4 tactical_bombers moved from Western Germany to 113 Sea Zone 2 artilleries and 6 infantry moved from Austria to Yugoslavia 1 armour and 2 infantry moved from Slovakia Hungary to Yugoslavia 1 armour and 1 infantry moved from Romania to Yugoslavia 1 armour and 1 fighter moved from Poland to Yugoslavia Combat - Germans Battle in Yugoslavia Germans attack with 3 armour, 2 artilleries, 1 fighter and 9 infantry Neutral_Allies defend with 5 infantry Germans win, taking Yugoslavia from Neutral_Allies with 3 armour, 2 artilleries, 1 fighter and 9 infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 15 Casualties for Neutral_Allies: 5 infantry Battle in Normandy Bordeaux Germans attack with 1 armour, 1 artillery, 2 infantry and 1 mech_infantry French defend with 1 artillery, 1 factory_minor, 1 harbour and 1 infantry Germans win, taking Normandy Bordeaux from French with 1 armour, 1 artillery, 2 infantry and 1 mech_infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 7 Casualties for French: 1 artillery and 1 infantry Battle in 114 Sea Zone Germans attack with 1 battleship, 1 bomber, 1 fighter, 2 submarines and 1 tactical_bomber British defend with 1 battleship, 1 cruiser and 1 destroyer Units damaged: 1 battleship owned by the British Units damaged: 1 battleship owned by the Germans Germans win with 1 battleship, 1 bomber, 1 fighter, 1 submarine and 1 tactical_bomber remaining. Battle score for attacker is 31 Casualties for Germans: 1 submarine Casualties for British: 1 battleship, 1 cruiser and 1 destroyer Battle in 109 Sea Zone Germans attack with 2 submarines British defend with 1 destroyer and 1 transport Germans win, taking 109 Sea Zone from Neutral with 2 submarines remaining. Battle score for attacker is 14 Casualties for British: 1 destroyer and 1 transport Battle in 113 Sea Zone Germans attack with 1 bomber, 3 fighters, 2 submarines and 4 tactical_bombers British defend with 1 battleship and 1 cruiser; French defend with 1 cruiser Units damaged: 1 battleship owned by the British Germans win with 1 bomber, 3 fighters and 3 tactical_bombers remaining. Battle score for attacker is 18 Casualties for Germans: 2 submarines and 1 tactical_bomber Casualties for French: 1 cruiser Casualties for British: 1 battleship and 1 cruiser Battle in France Germans attack with 5 armour, 2 artilleries, 6 infantry and 4 mech_infantrys British defend with 1 armour and 1 artillery; French defend with 1 aaGun, 1 airfield, 1 armour, 1 artillery, 1 factory_major, 1 fighter and 6 infantry Germans captures 19PUs while taking French capital Germans converts factory_major into different units Germans win, taking France from French with 5 armour and 4 mech_infantrys remaining. Battle score for attacker is 27 Casualties for Germans: 2 artilleries and 6 infantry Casualties for French: 1 aaGun, 1 armour, 1 artillery, 1 fighter and 6 infantry Casualties for British: 1 armour and 1 artillery Trigger Germans Conquer France: Setting switch to true for conditionAttachment_French_1_Liberation_Switch attached to French triggerFrenchDestroyPUsGermans: Setting destroysPUs to true for playerAttachment attached to French Non Combat Move - Germans 1 cruiser and 1 transport moved from 117 Sea Zone to 115 Sea Zone 3 infantry moved from Norway to Finland Germans take Finland from Neutral_Axis 2 infantry moved from Denmark to 115 Sea Zone 2 infantry moved from 115 Sea Zone to Norway 1 aaGun, 3 artilleries and 11 infantry moved from Germany to Poland 1 infantry moved from Romania to Bulgaria Germans take Bulgaria from Neutral_Axis 1 fighter moved from Yugoslavia to Southern Italy 1 fighter and 1 tactical_bomber moved from 114 Sea Zone to 115 Sea Zone 1 bomber moved from 114 Sea Zone to Western Germany 1 bomber, 3 fighters and 3 tactical_bombers moved from 113 Sea Zone to Western Germany 1 aaGun moved from Germany to Slovakia Hungary 1 aaGun moved from Holland Belgium to Normandy Bordeaux 1 aaGun moved from Western Germany to Holland Belgium Place Units - Germans 1 carrier, 1 destroyer and 1 submarine placed in 115 Sea Zone Turning on Edit Mode EDIT: Removing units owned by Germans from 114 Sea Zone: 1 submarine EDIT: Removing units owned by Germans from 114 Sea Zone: 1 battleship EDIT: Adding units owned by Germans to 115 Sea Zone: 1 battleship EDIT: Changing unit hit damage for these Germans owned units to: battleship = 1 EDIT: Turning off Edit Mode Turn Complete - Germans Germans collect 41 PUs; end with 60 PUs Trigger Germans 5 Swedish Iron Ore: Germans met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 65 PUs Objective Germans 1 Trade with Russia: Germans met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 70 PUsLeague General Discussion Thread
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You’re right, they permit fly-overs of any Vichy French territory
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Thank you for the answer.
Activation is used in the rule book. Pg 10 in Europe. The standing army is activated.
Where as in southern France, the army is not activated, but disbanded.
If a US AAA gun counts as a land unit occupying a north African territory for a NO, why doesn’t an italian AAA count as occuping southern France (rule for Zone Libere states any axis occupation).
Not trying to be pedantic. Since your explanation on why no AAA on NCM, and rereading the BM notes vs Alpha 3+ rule book, i am coming around to the legal premise it should be an CM, not a NCM, move. The notes are worded occupy, where as there is no word occupy in the official rulebook section dealing with neutrals. There it uses move into, moving from neutral status to placing power control marker on, to activating army.
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I’m glad you’re doing the research, that makes things easier.
Yes, part of the challenge here is melding 2nd edition rulebook (the official and amazing Kevin Chapman) and the BM team (players).(US AAA counts for North Africa) And Allied AA on Sardinia/Sicily etc
This is a balanced mod concept for their new NO’s and so is not meaningful when understanding all Vichy rules.The reason an Axis AAA doesn’t count as occupying South France is because it is against the rules for the AAA to enter the territory (in NCM) by itself.
I sense confusion in your last paragraph. I will attempt to help.
AAA is never moved on a combat move. Friendly neutrals are activated in noncombat. But AAA alone can’t activate a friendly neutral.
So you take control of a friendly neutral by “moving” in with infantry, artillery, mechanized infantry, or armor. -
@gamerman01
Sorry - I have moved passed the use of the AAA. I now fully understand why that doesn’t work.The last two of my posts are about how Zone Libere is not an pro-axis neutral. So it should only be occupied on a CM, not a non-cm.
Note that the army and navy there disband if either the acis or allies enter. They only activate if a) france is liberated by the allies or b) southern france is occupied by the free French.
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How does a pro-axis territory that has a standing army become an allied power territory with that said army when another allied army liberates a different territory?
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@mainah said in League General Discussion Thread:
The last two of my posts are about how Zone Libere is not an pro-axis neutral. So it should only be occupied on a CM, not a non-cm.
@gamerman01 said in League General Discussion Thread:
French Territorial Control: At the beginning of France’s first turn in which Armistice conditions are met, all originally French territories not already under Axis control immediately change ownership to Pro-Axis Neutrals, except: (1) French Equatorial Africa; (2) New Hebrides; (2) any French territories containing non-French allied land units.
South France is a pro-Axis neutral
I will be more clear. "all orginally French territories not already under Axis control" includes South France!
South France is a pro-Axis neutral immediately on France’s turn when Vichy conditions have been met.
As a pro-Axis neutral, the Axis take control by moving in during non-combat, and the Allies take control by attacking it. The difference (for the actual territory of South France) is that the infantry and artillery there vaporize and cannot be controlled by the Axis. -
@mainah said in League General Discussion Thread:
How does a pro-axis territory that has a standing army become an allied power territory with that said army when another allied army liberates a different territory?
I don’t understand your question
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Sorry. I think I had it in my head that the part
With the exception of Southern France (see discussion of “Zone Libere” below), Vichy French territory operates the same way as other Pro-Axis Neutral territory. An Axis player may capture Vichy French territory and commandeer its forces by moving a land unit into the territory during the non-combat phase of his turn.
was before
At the beginning of France’s first turn in which Armistice conditions are met, all originally French territories not already under Axis control immediately change ownership to Pro-Axis Neutrals, except: (1) French Equatorial Africa; (2) New Hebrides; (2) any French territories containing non-French allied land units.
Secondly
@gamerman01 said in League General Discussion Thread:
@mainah said in League General Discussion Thread:
How does a pro-axis territory that has a standing army become an allied power territory with that said army when another allied army liberates a different territory?
I don’t understand your question
The pro axis neutral southern france has 1 inf, 1 art, 1 CZ, 1 DD that will revert back to french control if the allies liberate Paris.
If the rules are taken at face value, in the order that they are written, I see what you are saying.
But if I am trying to understand that Southern France is:
- pro-axis neutral
- except for the fact that you can fly over without occupying it
- you can occupy it as the Axis but the army disbands, not activate like a pro-axis neutral
- the allies have to fight for it like any other pro-axis neutral
- unless they liberate france, in which case the pro-axis neutral units in southern france become french again
- or a French unit liberates southern france, in which case the pro-axis neutral units become free french
the rule that it is a pro-axis neutral does not seem to fit.
That creates another question: If a Free French unit (allied) enters in an liberates Southern France, activating the army/navy as french, do they do it on CM, or non-CM? Why to whatever the answer is.
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M mainah referenced this topic on
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@mainah said in League General Discussion Thread:
That creates another question: If a Free French unit (allied) enters in an liberates Southern France, activating the army/navy as french, do they do it on CM, or non-CM? Why to whatever the answer is.
NCM. There’s no combat.
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We posted at the same time, with you a nonosecond later, so I use my supreme moderator powers to bring it to the forefront.
I think I can explain Vichy rules, but I never did like them. They’re clumsier and less intuitive than the dreadful Mongolia rules.
Both are unnecessary complications of the smooth and beautiful game we all know as Axis & Allies in my opinion.
So don’t take my explanations as a defense or justification. I had nothing to do with them and they are a totally unofficial set of house rules that came to us with the balanced mod package. I can’t even remember, I think they were considered optional. -
And I see you have found just how convoluted they are and why they should not be used, if I dare say so.
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To be fair to the BM guys, who did a great job,
Larry’s flying tigers are also a kind of lame attempt to make things a bit more historical. The flying tigers never supported Chinese infantry, of course. They basically did strat bombing runs from what I recall researching it a long time ago
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And then that special unit/situation necessitated further rules, such as the fighter can’t go out over water.
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Of course the intent of Larry Harris, in the case of the flying tigers and kamikazes, and also the BM team was to make the game MORE FUN! and they pretty much succeeded. But those Vichy rules…
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Thank you for the explanations and the time. Really appreciate it.
And yes, way clunkier than the Mongolian rules.
They did do a great job, it’s not easy writing rules. If it was, there would not be a profession called lawyer.
I am not saying that they shouldn’t be played. Just clarified.
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You are close to the point where you can help other league players understand and enjoy them.
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I just got ambushed by it in the first round of the playoffs. I hadn’t played many games for years and got blindsided. Lost 2-3 UK air because I landed them on Syria and not an island. Just brutal.
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@gamerman01
I lost 2 fig and a tac in french indo-china, same thing. -
Alright, now I can’t resist complaining about those rules.
Germany goes out of their way to take Normandy G1. Then the UK can stop it with a transport to South France or Normandy. Depending on circumstances, Italy can activate the whole thing with that tank they have in North Italy. In this case, Italy’s combat movement has to be made not knowing the outcome of that battle (There is a French fleet out there) It’s so messed up. In my opinion. -
@mainah said in League General Discussion Thread:
@gamerman01
I lost 2 fig and a tac in french indo-china, same thing.Ah, because you were sure there would not be a J2 DOW I guess.
Interesting
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