Game History
Round: 3 Purchase Units - Americans Americans buy 1 armour, 1 bomber, 1 fighter, 1 infantry and 3 transports; Remaining resources: 0 PUs; Politics - Americans Trigger Americans War Production Eastern: has removed 1 factory_minor owned by Americans in Eastern United States Trigger Americans War Production Central: has removed 1 factory_minor owned by Americans in Central United States Trigger Americans War Production Western: has removed 1 factory_minor owned by Americans in Western United States Trigger Americans War Production Eastern: Americans has 1 factory_major placed in Eastern United States Trigger Americans War Production Central: Americans has 1 factory_major placed in Central United States Trigger Americans War Production Western: Americans has 1 factory_major placed in Western United States Combat Move - Americans Trigger Americans Unrestricted Movement: Setting movementRestrictionTerritories cleared for rulesAttachment attached to Americans 2 infantry and 1 transport moved from 16 Sea Zone to 17 Sea Zone 2 infantry moved from 17 Sea Zone to Iwo Jima Combat - Americans Battle in Iwo Jima Non Combat Move - Americans 1 artillery, 1 battleship, 1 carrier, 2 cruisers, 3 destroyers, 1 fighter, 1 infantry, 2 submarines, 1 tactical_bomber and 1 transport moved from 16 Sea Zone to 17 Sea Zone 1 artillery and 1 infantry moved from 17 Sea Zone to Iwo Jima 2 carriers and 4 fighters moved from 7 Sea Zone to 17 Sea Zone 1 infantry and 1 mech_infantry moved from Western United States to 10 Sea Zone 1 battleship, 1 infantry, 1 mech_infantry and 1 transport moved from 10 Sea Zone to 26 Sea Zone 1 infantry and 1 mech_infantry moved from 26 Sea Zone to Hawaiian Islands 1 fighter moved from Aleutian Islands to Siberia 2 bombers moved from Alaska to Siberia 1 bomber moved from Western United States to Siberia 1 armour moved from Eastern United States to 101 Sea Zone 1 infantry moved from Eastern United States to 101 Sea Zone 1 armour, 1 infantry and 1 transport moved from 101 Sea Zone to 91 Sea Zone 1 armour and 1 infantry moved from 91 Sea Zone to Gibraltar 1 infantry and 1 mech_infantry moved from Eastern United States to 101 Sea Zone 1 infantry, 1 mech_infantry and 1 transport moved from 101 Sea Zone to 86 Sea Zone 1 infantry and 1 mech_infantry moved from 86 Sea Zone to Brazil Americans take Brazil from Neutral_Allies 1 cruiser and 1 destroyer moved from 101 Sea Zone to 91 Sea Zone Place Units - Americans 2 transports placed in 101 Sea Zone 1 transport placed in 10 Sea Zone 1 armour, 1 bomber, 1 fighter and 1 infantry placed in Western United States Turn Complete - Americans Americans collect 53 PUs; end with 53 PUs Objective Americans 1 Homeland: Americans met a national objective for an additional 10 PUs; end with 63 PUs Objective Americans 3 Defense Obligations: Americans met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 68 PUs Objective Americans 2 Outer Territories: Americans met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 73 PUs Purchase Units - Chinese Trigger Chinese Loses Burma Road: Chinese has their production frontier changed to: productionChinese_Burma_Road_Closed Chinese buy 2 infantry; Remaining resources: 2 PUs; Combat Move - Chinese 1 fighter and 11 infantry moved from Suiyuyan to Chahar Chinese take Chahar from Japanese 1 infantry moved from Suiyuyan to Chahar 1 fighter moved from Chahar to Suiyuyan Combat - Chinese Non Combat Move - Chinese Place Units - Chinese 2 infantry placed in Suiyuyan Turn Complete - Chinese Chinese collect 8 PUs; end with 10 PUs Purchase Units - British British buy 1 carrier, 1 destroyer and 3 infantry; Remaining resources: 0 PUs; Combat Move - British 1 carrier, 3 cruisers, 3 destroyers and 2 fighters moved from 98 Sea Zone to 97 Sea Zone 1 bomber, 1 fighter and 1 tactical_bomber moved from Egypt to 97 Sea Zone 2 destroyers moved from 81 Sea Zone to 97 Sea Zone 1 infantry moved from Tobruk to Libya British take Libya from Italians 1 artillery and 2 infantry moved from Egypt to 98 Sea Zone 1 artillery moved from Trans-Jordan to 98 Sea Zone 2 artilleries, 2 infantry and 2 transports moved from 98 Sea Zone to 76 Sea Zone 2 artilleries and 2 infantry moved from 76 Sea Zone to Ethiopia 1 battleship moved from 76 Sea Zone to 80 Sea Zone 1 armour moved from Egypt to Ethiopia Combat - British Battle in 97 Sea Zone British attack with 1 bomber, 1 carrier, 3 cruisers, 5 destroyers, 3 fighters and 1 tactical_bomber Italians defend with 1 battleship, 2 cruisers, 1 destroyer and 2 transports British win, taking 97 Sea Zone from Neutral with 1 bomber, 1 carrier, 3 cruisers, 5 destroyers and 3 fighters remaining. Battle score for attacker is 55 Casualties for British: 1 tactical_bomber Casualties for Italians: 1 battleship, 2 cruisers, 1 destroyer and 2 transports Battle in Ethiopia British attack with 1 armour, 2 artilleries and 2 infantry Italians defend with 1 artillery and 3 infantry 1 armour owned by the British retreated to Anglo Egyptian Sudan Italians win with 1 artillery and 1 infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is -8 Casualties for British: 2 artilleries and 2 infantry Casualties for Italians: 2 infantry Non Combat Move - British 1 infantry moved from Belgian Congo to Anglo Egyptian Sudan 1 infantry moved from Belgian Congo to Anglo Egyptian Sudan 2 fighters moved from West India to 80 Sea Zone 1 bomber moved from 97 Sea Zone to Egypt 1 fighter moved from 97 Sea Zone to Malta 1 fighter moved from Gibraltar to Egypt 1 fighter moved from Gibraltar to United Kingdom 1 artillery and 4 infantry moved from Iraq to Persia 1 aaGun and 2 infantry moved from Trans-Jordan to Iraq 3 aaGuns, 1 armour, 1 artillery, 9 infantry, 1 mech_infantry and 1 tactical_bomber moved from West India to Eastern Persia Place Units - British 1 carrier and 1 destroyer placed in 80 Sea Zone 1 infantry placed in Persia 2 infantry placed in Egypt Turn Complete - British British collect 33 PUs; end with 33 PUs Turn Complete - UK_PacificLeague General Discussion Thread
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@mainah
Notes say any axis occupation, not axis activation. -
I appreciate that you copied and pasted here -
Is the matter in question about landing air on South France?
French Territorial Control: At the beginning of France’s first turn in which Armistice conditions are met, all originally French territories not already under Axis control immediately change ownership to Pro-Axis Neutrals, except: (1) French Equatorial Africa; (2) New Hebrides; (2) any French territories containing non-French allied land units.
South France is a pro-Axis neutral, you can’t land air on neutrals unless it’s already been attacked
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@gamerman01
What about the part where it says “except for southern France (see discussion of Zone Libere below)”As in that specific territory is named as not being affected by the pro-axis neutral change. It has its own section, where it refers to occupation, not activation. Fly overs are permitted. I get now that landing is not.
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I’m glad you press until you have everything answered in your mind.
The “except for” doesn’t mean South France is not a pro-Axis neutral. The “Zone Libre” section just says the fleet sinks, remaining Vichy French forces disappear, and infantry taken over by the Axis remain with the Axis.
None of the “except for” changes any of its attributes as a pro-Axis neutral
And without making sure, I don’t believe “activation” is the correct term for taking control of neutrals in 2nd edition rules, so it may help clear up confusion to not use that term
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You’re right, they permit fly-overs of any Vichy French territory
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Thank you for the answer.
Activation is used in the rule book. Pg 10 in Europe. The standing army is activated.
Where as in southern France, the army is not activated, but disbanded.
If a US AAA gun counts as a land unit occupying a north African territory for a NO, why doesn’t an italian AAA count as occuping southern France (rule for Zone Libere states any axis occupation).
Not trying to be pedantic. Since your explanation on why no AAA on NCM, and rereading the BM notes vs Alpha 3+ rule book, i am coming around to the legal premise it should be an CM, not a NCM, move. The notes are worded occupy, where as there is no word occupy in the official rulebook section dealing with neutrals. There it uses move into, moving from neutral status to placing power control marker on, to activating army.
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I’m glad you’re doing the research, that makes things easier.
Yes, part of the challenge here is melding 2nd edition rulebook (the official and amazing Kevin Chapman) and the BM team (players).(US AAA counts for North Africa) And Allied AA on Sardinia/Sicily etc
This is a balanced mod concept for their new NO’s and so is not meaningful when understanding all Vichy rules.The reason an Axis AAA doesn’t count as occupying South France is because it is against the rules for the AAA to enter the territory (in NCM) by itself.
I sense confusion in your last paragraph. I will attempt to help.
AAA is never moved on a combat move. Friendly neutrals are activated in noncombat. But AAA alone can’t activate a friendly neutral.
So you take control of a friendly neutral by “moving” in with infantry, artillery, mechanized infantry, or armor. -
@gamerman01
Sorry - I have moved passed the use of the AAA. I now fully understand why that doesn’t work.The last two of my posts are about how Zone Libere is not an pro-axis neutral. So it should only be occupied on a CM, not a non-cm.
Note that the army and navy there disband if either the acis or allies enter. They only activate if a) france is liberated by the allies or b) southern france is occupied by the free French.
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How does a pro-axis territory that has a standing army become an allied power territory with that said army when another allied army liberates a different territory?
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@mainah said in League General Discussion Thread:
The last two of my posts are about how Zone Libere is not an pro-axis neutral. So it should only be occupied on a CM, not a non-cm.
@gamerman01 said in League General Discussion Thread:
French Territorial Control: At the beginning of France’s first turn in which Armistice conditions are met, all originally French territories not already under Axis control immediately change ownership to Pro-Axis Neutrals, except: (1) French Equatorial Africa; (2) New Hebrides; (2) any French territories containing non-French allied land units.
South France is a pro-Axis neutral
I will be more clear. "all orginally French territories not already under Axis control" includes South France!
South France is a pro-Axis neutral immediately on France’s turn when Vichy conditions have been met.
As a pro-Axis neutral, the Axis take control by moving in during non-combat, and the Allies take control by attacking it. The difference (for the actual territory of South France) is that the infantry and artillery there vaporize and cannot be controlled by the Axis. -
@mainah said in League General Discussion Thread:
How does a pro-axis territory that has a standing army become an allied power territory with that said army when another allied army liberates a different territory?
I don’t understand your question
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Sorry. I think I had it in my head that the part
With the exception of Southern France (see discussion of “Zone Libere” below), Vichy French territory operates the same way as other Pro-Axis Neutral territory. An Axis player may capture Vichy French territory and commandeer its forces by moving a land unit into the territory during the non-combat phase of his turn.
was before
At the beginning of France’s first turn in which Armistice conditions are met, all originally French territories not already under Axis control immediately change ownership to Pro-Axis Neutrals, except: (1) French Equatorial Africa; (2) New Hebrides; (2) any French territories containing non-French allied land units.
Secondly
@gamerman01 said in League General Discussion Thread:
@mainah said in League General Discussion Thread:
How does a pro-axis territory that has a standing army become an allied power territory with that said army when another allied army liberates a different territory?
I don’t understand your question
The pro axis neutral southern france has 1 inf, 1 art, 1 CZ, 1 DD that will revert back to french control if the allies liberate Paris.
If the rules are taken at face value, in the order that they are written, I see what you are saying.
But if I am trying to understand that Southern France is:
- pro-axis neutral
- except for the fact that you can fly over without occupying it
- you can occupy it as the Axis but the army disbands, not activate like a pro-axis neutral
- the allies have to fight for it like any other pro-axis neutral
- unless they liberate france, in which case the pro-axis neutral units in southern france become french again
- or a French unit liberates southern france, in which case the pro-axis neutral units become free french
the rule that it is a pro-axis neutral does not seem to fit.
That creates another question: If a Free French unit (allied) enters in an liberates Southern France, activating the army/navy as french, do they do it on CM, or non-CM? Why to whatever the answer is.
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M mainah referenced this topic on
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@mainah said in League General Discussion Thread:
That creates another question: If a Free French unit (allied) enters in an liberates Southern France, activating the army/navy as french, do they do it on CM, or non-CM? Why to whatever the answer is.
NCM. There’s no combat.
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We posted at the same time, with you a nonosecond later, so I use my supreme moderator powers to bring it to the forefront.
I think I can explain Vichy rules, but I never did like them. They’re clumsier and less intuitive than the dreadful Mongolia rules.
Both are unnecessary complications of the smooth and beautiful game we all know as Axis & Allies in my opinion.
So don’t take my explanations as a defense or justification. I had nothing to do with them and they are a totally unofficial set of house rules that came to us with the balanced mod package. I can’t even remember, I think they were considered optional. -
And I see you have found just how convoluted they are and why they should not be used, if I dare say so.
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To be fair to the BM guys, who did a great job,
Larry’s flying tigers are also a kind of lame attempt to make things a bit more historical. The flying tigers never supported Chinese infantry, of course. They basically did strat bombing runs from what I recall researching it a long time ago
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And then that special unit/situation necessitated further rules, such as the fighter can’t go out over water.
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Of course the intent of Larry Harris, in the case of the flying tigers and kamikazes, and also the BM team was to make the game MORE FUN! and they pretty much succeeded. But those Vichy rules…
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Thank you for the explanations and the time. Really appreciate it.
And yes, way clunkier than the Mongolian rules.
They did do a great job, it’s not easy writing rules. If it was, there would not be a profession called lawyer.
I am not saying that they shouldn’t be played. Just clarified.
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You are close to the point where you can help other league players understand and enjoy them.
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