League General Discussion Thread

@farmboy said in League General Discussion Thread:

@MrRoboto I’m assuming the axis win percentage by M or E players is just telling us how often do they win if when they play axis. If it is easy to do, do you have how often they win as allies? It would be interesting to know that too.

Not quite right.

That graph shows the win% of axis, when one or both opponents are M or E.
The top player can be Allies or Axis, and the top player might have lost against the bottom player!

It might also be a game where both opponents are M or E…

I can give you the exact statistic of Axis Win% and Allies Win% of Top players in a moment

@MrRoboto Thank you for sharing!

May I present to you: The might of our top players!

Yes, you see that correctly: Every single time a top player chose Axis in BM4, he has won! I couldn’t believe it at first, but I double checked…

For context here are the absolute numbers:

Axis wins:

Total: 44 out of 52
OOB: 19 out of 22
BM4: 15 out of 15
PtV: 10 out of 15

Allies wins:

Total: 32 out of 40
OOB: 11 out of 15
BM4: 12 out of 15
PtV: 9 out of 10

One thing of note:

A result is only considered when the specific player is M or E in the type that’s actually played.

So if a player is M in PtV, E in BM4 but only Tier 3 in OOB, the result is only counted in the above graph when the game type is actually BM4 or PtV

@MrRoboto lol sorry but i have definitely lost as axis in BM4, vs sovietishcat…who has a super strong allied game going on. Shame im the only one :(

@MrRoboto Just a point of clarification as I’m not understanding what is being captured here. Is this only when the winning player is M or E and the losing player is not M or E. I read this to read that an M or E player has not lost when picking axis in BM but do know of several games where an M or E player picked axis, and played another M or E player and has lost.

I bet that it is about something like an IF-function? So all games of BM with a M or E player as Axis are won by a M or E player - but not necessarily the one playing Axis?

Now I didn’t want to go into details yet, but since the issue has come up and caused some confusion, I guess I have to indulge now.

A while back @gamerman01 asked around if someone wants to be backup for the rankings spreadsheet in case something happened to him. I volunteered and subsequently got admin rights from him.

While trying to dive deep into it, I noticed some flaws with the current spreadsheet however. The most severe one: Circular referencing.

A player’s PPG determines the players Tier ranking. This determines how many points opponents get when playing that player. These points influence the PPG of the opponents and therefore the Tier ranking of all of them. The Tier ranking of the opponents however determine how many points the original player gets. This might change the tier ranking of the player and the whole cycle starts over.

So:
Player A’s PPG -> A’s Tier ranking -> PPG of A’s opponents -> Tier ranking of A’s opponents -> Player A’s PPG…

So the question is: What is the starting Tier of everyone? @gamerman01 uses past years as an indicator. However, there are some inconsistencies with new players.
Look at the overall spreadsheet right now:

Gorshak is 2-0 with 8.0 PPG, but Tier 1
jkeller is 0-1 with 4.0 PPG, but Tier M

The starting Tier is also heavily influenced by the timing and order of reults.
Use me as an example: I started this year with 4-0 and the spreadsheet therefore put me in Tier M. This meant that all of my opponents got a lot of points against me, even when they lost. Even though I have lost a lot since then, I caused a big points inflation and am therefore still E (because all of my opponents are ranked very high too because of the points inflation). @dawgoneit is another example, he started the year with a higher ranking and since he has so many games there is a huge points inflation.

Now I am a huge Excel / Google sheets nerd and I noticed all this while I was working on a side project: Currently @gamerman01 updates and maintains everything manually himself. This is a huge workload, thanks by the way for all the hours these past years!
I created an alternative spreadsheet, that heavily uses formulae and therefore is updated completely automatically!

My spreadsheet has the same problem with circular references of course. I can create dozens of different results with the same games as input!
The one I settled for is the following: All games are already put into the system (instead of one after another) and all players starting Tier is Tier 1. THEN I activate the points given for wins and losses.

I have not yet shared this with all of you since I am still consulting with @gamerman01 and want to hear his opinion first. However, he is preoccupied with real life right now so you guys have to be a bit patient.

By the way, I have made a proposal to him on how to fix these (and more) issues with the current system in the following years, but again: I want his opinion and more importantly his blessings first.

Now, @wizmark and @farmboy have rightfully wondered and questioned the above graphs. So I want to share the rankings these graphs are based on:

Overall:

OOB:

BM4:

PtV:

Now as I said, these rankings constantly shift, whenever I make the tiniest adjustments within the sheet, because of the circular references.

I don’t change any rules, I don’t change any inputs, but this leads to different outcomes. with THESE rankings I just posted, you can see there are zero M players in BM4 and only 3 Tier E players (who have not played each other).

These Tier E players are 14-0. 8 of those games as axis, 6 as Allies.

With this data, the current graph is the following:

@MrRoboto thank you for the effort - I love this automation in the way you described it. I always wondered how it could be possible to manually adjust all points of past opponents and all of their opponents etc. following a new game result.

I think it is fair to take prior year’s PPG as a starting point for players who finished 3+ games and, as you suggested, 1 for new players and players who completed <3 games in the prior year.

PS: I also like the ELO system from Chess, but that’s a different discussion. And there is plenty of management software available.

Thank you G-man, Mr R for your work here. Very valuable! I am surprised by the BM result. I am also excited by the oob results.

Honestly, the top player results are the only results I am interested in. Everything else is player error. Am I wrong?

BM rule question: Are battleships / cruisers carrying marines considered transports, in general and in terms of following question in particular?

@pacifiersboard said in pacifiersboard (X) vs. Ghostglider (L +12) BM:

@Ghostglider said in pacifiersboard (X) vs. Ghostglider (L +12) BM:

I am certain, but I don’t know the correct place to reference.
A fast google-search find below:

https://axisallies.com/rules/axis-allies-rules-pacific1940-2nd-edition.pdf

Page 16: If a transport loads
land units during the Combat Move phase, it must offload those units to attack a hostile territory as part of an amphibious
assault during the Conduct Combat phase, or it must retreat during the sea combat step of the amphibious assault sequence
while attempting to do so.

good one. I think that this BM feature possibly is not covered by an official ruling? Only found in Game Notes:

• (PE) Transports can only be loaded in 1 phase (not both), and unloaded in 1 phase (not both).
• (PE) Transports if unloading for amphibious assault must unload all units loaded in the combat move phase and may not hold back some units while offloading other units unless the units held back were loaded in previous rounds.

@Panther @gamerman01
Is there already an answer to this Balanced Mod related rule question?

@pacifiersboard as as far as I’m aware, that rule applies to marines on battleships and cruisers as well. So if you load marines on a combat move, they need to be making an amphibious assault that turn. Its why you will often see players leaving the marines on the Battleship and Cruiser rather than landing them on a NCM.

@pacifiersboard said in League General Discussion Thread:

BM rule question: Are battleships / cruisers carrying marines considered transports, in general and in terms of following question in particular?

@pacifiersboard said in pacifiersboard (X) vs. Ghostglider (L +12) BM:

@Ghostglider said in pacifiersboard (X) vs. Ghostglider (L +12) BM:

I am certain, but I don’t know the correct place to reference.
A fast google-search find below:

https://axisallies.com/rules/axis-allies-rules-pacific1940-2nd-edition.pdf

Page 16: If a transport loads
land units during the Combat Move phase, it must offload those units to attack a hostile territory as part of an amphibious
assault during the Conduct Combat phase, or it must retreat during the sea combat step of the amphibious assault sequence
while attempting to do so.

good one. I think that this BM feature possibly is not covered by an official ruling? Only found in Game Notes:

• (PE) Transports can only be loaded in 1 phase (not both), and unloaded in 1 phase (not both).
• (PE) Transports if unloading for amphibious assault must unload all units loaded in the combat move phase and may not hold back some units while offloading other units unless the units held back were loaded in previous rounds.

@Panther @gamerman01
Is there already an answer to this Balanced Mod related rule question?

The loading of any troops on any type of ship follows the transport rules.

It would be nice to add, that Subs parked in a sz containing TT’s and/or BB/CR the opposing Player must decide to either attack the Sub and can’t load and unload Land units or ignore it but must perform an amphib. Assault elsewhere to load and unload units…

@aequitas-et-veritas said in League General Discussion Thread:

It would be nice to add, that Subs parked in a sz containing TT’s and/or BB/CR the opposing Player must decide to either attack the Sub and can’t load and unload Land units or ignore it but must perform an amphib. Assault elsewhere to load and unload units…

Why cannot you load if you attack the sub?

"It is possible that some of your units may stop to attack while others continue moving through the sea zone.

Sea Units Starting in Hostile Sea Zones
… surface warships (not submarines and/or transports) belonging to a power with which you are at war, …" p. 13f (Europe rulebook)

You can only load if the transport is doing an amphibious assault, it should be. Otherwise the transport will have been in combat and can’t load on NCM.