League General Discussion Thread

simon33

should attack

Pejon_88

From the discussion it’s obvious that a sub in 106 is great. Either you force Germany to attack with 3 subs, which weakens all other attacks. Maybe only if you are hell bent on taking out all UK transports that’s sound. Or make it into a coin flip when they attack with 2 subs only. Also I don’t think it’s terrible for Germany not being able to attack with that most-western sub. You can place it strategically instead.

simon33

I think sending 3 subs there only works if you also attack SZ109, which I can’t really like.

trulpen

2 figs definitely makes z111 shakier and makes it more risky for G to conduct both attacks. The upside is that with no sub in z106, 2 subs can join z111 which evens things out a bit. On the other hand then an attack on z106 is really just a coinflip with a sub against a des. The reward for success usually makes it kind of worth it anyway, even though it’s only something like 30-40 %.

Anyway, with an extra fig in Scotland it might very well be that Bismarck has to go to z110 with an option to perhaps sink the northern fleet the next turn.

Pejon_88

@simon33 yup that’s what I meant. Depending on the UK bid there is situations when this is most sound. E.g. when they place no sub in 106 but in both 110 and 111

trulpen

I think 2 subs vs 1 sub, 1 des is quite ok. If the 2 subs get atleast 1 hit, the defender can’t really afford to save the des. There’s only 50 % chance of getting into a situation with sub against des, and if that fails there’s 2 subs vs 1 des next battle round, which utterly sucks.

simon33

@trulpen said in League General Discussion Thread:

The reward for success usually makes it kind of worth it anyway, even though it’s only something like 30-40 %.

1 sub vs 1DD 1TT is 40% attacker kills everything and lives, 20% attacker kills DD only (and loses the sub) 40% defender kills the sub and loses nothing.

So totally worth it from an IPC standpoint, on the average. Even more worth it when the SZ121 sub is otherwise dead meat.

@trulpen said in League General Discussion Thread:

I think 2 subs vs 1 sub, 1 des is quite ok. If the 2 subs get atleast 1 hit, the defender can’t really afford to save the des. There’s only 50 % chance of getting into a situation with sub against des, and if that fails there’s 2 subs vs 1 des next battle round, which utterly sucks.

So you reckon take the first hit on the DD and submerge the sub? Interesting. You are giving up on the chance of saving the TT then. What is that chance? I calculate 60% * 1/3 + 60% * 4/23 * 2/3 = 27%. Hmm.

Pejon_88

@simon33 you have first strike with the UK sub which is great. Then my goal would be to save the transport as far as possible so would most likely go max defence. 2 vs 1 at two or less is still very much up to luck. We have all seen those battles go on for 10 rounds without any hits.

simon33

@pejon_88 said in League General Discussion Thread:

@simon33 you have first strike with the UK sub which is great. Then my goal would be to save the transport as far as possible so would most likely go max defence. 2 vs 1 at two or less is still very much up to luck. We have all seen those battles go on for 10 rounds without any hits.

Obviously I was talking about the case if that UK sub has missed and the Germans get one hit. Other cases are pretty obvious - you lose the sub if the british sub gets a first strike to try to defend the TT in a coin flip. Or if the Germans get 2 hits the Brits have no decision.

Pejon_88

@simon33 I’d still most likely lose the sub for a chance to save the transport

simon33

@pejon_88 said in League General Discussion Thread:

@simon33 I’d still most likely lose the sub for a chance to save the transport

trulpen may have a point here though. If you save the sub it then improves your odds to kill both the subs UK1. Probably you will keep both the sub and the DD from 109 and kill both subs whereas if you kill the sub there is still a reasonable chance that you fail to kill both subs on UK1 and only a 27% chance of saving the TT isn’t so great.

I guess the UK sub surprise strike is the reason the battle is only 53% for Germany, 40% for UK.

Pejon_88

@simon33 Yes I know, it’s something to consider of course. Yes it’s due to the surprise strike. Some quite difficult odds calculation to do by hand hehe.

trulpen

It’s a risky venture. First strike is powerful, but only has that 16,7 % chance of hitting. For me that’s not good enough odds, but rather prefer to safeguard at taking out the surviving subs for sure. It’s usually an NO of 3 IPC for UK.

trulpen

Well, I have to admit that I’m leaning towards being a careful general, playing rather conservatively and usually not pursuing daring attacks or defenses unless the times are truly desperate.

trulpen

Sorry, my bad. UK of course knows if the sub hit in the first instance, since it’s first strike. That makes things better. If it hits, definitely sink the sub after 1 german hit. If it misses and 1 german hit, then I’d say definitely sink the des.

gamerman01

Interesting ideas for artillery in China or fighter on Malta. Forgot about China.

Like Simon said, I’m thinking resist the round 1 Axis attacks or strenghten an Allied attack on UK1. Subs to the UK does both.

simon33

This discussion made me go back to see what I did with a +80 bid in a low luck G40 game with oysteilo a few years back. In fact I omitted subs in 111 & 106 for only one in 110. Guess one in 106 would have been worthwhile because it would have allowed the counter attack UK1 (had other things to do and no Atlantic objective in G40). If I had placed one in 111 though it would have been wasted because the Scottish fighter was enough to deter the attack there, although there may still be a case because a different player might make a different decision. Possibly.

simon33

I don’t like the disincentive to retake Paris in G40 and derivatives. I’m with Gargantua on this one that is a really broken part of the game.

Surely the obvious change to fix this issue is to set Southern France and Normandy to be original owner Neutral Axis/Neutral Allies. Don’t really understand why no one is interested in this. It is annoying that Paris would be left empty to provide the incentive to retake it and stop USA from producing units there. Obviously, that change still doesn’t prevent the move of leaving Normandy and/or Southern France French owned - they could revert to neutral and allow someone to take them but I doubt anyone would like that. What about a negative objective for Germany if you do this after the second round? Any other ideas?

Soulblighter

@simon33 said in League General Discussion Thread:

I don’t like the disincentive to retake Paris in G40 and derivatives. I’m with Gargantua on this one that is a really broken part of the game.

Surely the obvious change to fix this issue is to set Southern France and Normandy to be original owner Neutral Axis/Neutral Allies. Don’t really understand why no one is interested in this. It is annoying that Paris would be left empty to provide the incentive to retake it and stop USA from producing units there. Obviously, that change still doesn’t prevent the move of leaving Normandy and/or Southern France French owned - they could revert to neutral and allow someone to take them but I doubt anyone would like that. What about a negative objective for Germany if you do this after the second round? Any other ideas?

I actually contemplated to do that in our game. Leave France empty. Ultimately decided on a much much more risky path, which ended up working out. Granted I did assume that italy vs southern france would be the average result and it ended up slightly above average. Still ended up fine.

Pejon_88

@soulblighter The upside to having stuff in France is that you can counter-attack in Normandy and/SF. Also, I would grab France any chance I get with the US where I am able to hold it. It gives you 5 IPC objective and most certainly another 5 IPC for having a unit in Normandy/SF. If you are in a position to re-take France you have most likely won as the Allies.

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