2.
UK/ANZAC DOW on Japan.
Why? All those plans could be done without DOW, can’t they?
I didn’t understand that either. Why would you delay getting the US in the war when you don’t have to?
@IKE:
2.
UK/ANZAC DOW on Japan.
Why? All those plans could be done without DOW, can’t they?
I didn’t understand that either.� � Why would you delay getting the US in the war when you don’t have to?
Let me offer some insight and understanding then.
There are NO REASONS why on UK/ANZAC 1 not to DOW on Japan, it is pointless not to and here is why.
UK/ANZAC go after Japan in the turn order. So, if they do NOT DOW they do not get the first move and have to react to Japan. With a DOW UK/ANZAC go before Japan and force a direction or choice from Japan. This is subtle but very important in the opening turns of the game.
UK/ANZAC only get their NO’s IF they are at war. So, if UK/ANZAC DOW on Japan they will achieve for a min. of 1 turn their NO’s on the Pacific map. ANZAC will get 10 IPC and UK 5 IPC. IF you wait until Japan declares war you will not get those NO’S, ANZAC maybe will get 5 IPC.
UK can now move into China if they so desire and set up a huge southern stack of troops with China.
There is no down side to declaring war on Japan, none. Japan does not get more NO’s or lose/gain NO’s based on a UK/ANZAC DOW. Japan gains NOTHING from a DOW against it.
Thus if the ALLIES DOW on Turn 1 they will get 15 IPC as a group. IF Japan is tied up and does not get south on J2 you will most likely lose Hong Kong but keep the other NO’s and net another 10 IPC.
By not declaring war the Allies most likely lose 20-25 IPC on the Pacific map on the opening 1-4 turns, it is all based on when Japan declares on the Allies.
Now should you make your stand in Borneo or Sumatra? I don’t think it really matters. I will admit though that Sumatra is easier to reinforce and if Japan ignores UK for a few turns and the UK commits to Sumatra they could in theory get 8 INF and 2 AAA onto the island if they so desires. Borneo most likely just 6 INF and a AAA.
What about the US bonus money you’re missing out on though?
Forgive me I forget, if UK/AZ declares war then US has to wait until which turn to declare war and get it’s bonuses? Is it end of turn 3 or 4?
@IKE:
What about the US bonus money you’re missing out on though? �
Forgive me I forget, if UK/AZ declares war then US has to wait until which turn to declare war and get it’s bonuses?� � Is it end of turn 3 or 4?
What? Sir, head upstairs to the bathroom and find your 1940 Rule book under the sink and take a seat, good sir. :-o
The USA is at war on turn 4 if the Axis do not DOW on them.
The USA only enters the war earlier than Turn 4 Based 100% on if Japan goes early on a DOW against them. Yes, Iam discounting the .000258% Chance that Germany DOW’s on the USA in turn one with a surprise sub attack on the East Coast.
USA entry into the war is totally dictated by Japans actions. Only Japan can get them into the war earlier that Turn 4. UK/ANZAC actions have 0 impact on USA entry into the war early.
The big issue for Japan as it relates to USA is they lose 10 IPC in NO’s when they are at war with the USA and the USA gains 20 IPC when they are at war with the Axis on No’s. There is a IPC incentive for Japan to not declare war on J1/J2 on the USA/France, because they gain 20 IPC in cold hard cash.
Japan goes j1 against USA and at the end of Turn 4 the USA has gotten 60 IPC bonus cash at that point.
@IKE:
What about the US bonus money you’re missing out on though? �
Forgive me I forget, if UK/AZ declares war then US has to wait until which turn to declare war and get it’s bonuses?� Is it end of turn 3 or 4?
What? Sir, head upstairs to the bathroom and find your 1940 Rule book under the sink and take a seat, good sir. :-o
The USA is at war on turn 4 if the Axis do not DOW on them.
The USA only enters the war earlier than Turn 4 Based 100% on if Japan goes early on a DOW against them. Yes, Iam discounting the .000258% Chance that Germany DOW’s on the USA in turn one with a surprise sub attack on the East Coast.
USA entry into the war is totally dictated by Japans actions. Only Japan can get them into the war earlier that Turn 4. UK/ANZAC actions have 0 impact on USA entry into the war early.
I don’t have my rulebook in front of me but I believe your understanding to be wrong. Japan attacks UK/Anzac and the US can declare war that same turn. UK/Anzac declare war on Japan first, US needs to wait until turn 4 (assuming Japan is smart enough not to attack US directly and London doesn’t fall. So it’s not only based on Japan declaring war on ‘them’ (US) but also UK/Anzac as well. That is why we asked about the lost US bonus income from an early UK/Anzac DOW on Japan.
The downside of the UK/ANZAC declare is that the US is decoupled from the alliance and there is no “tripwire” so the US CANNOT declare war on the Axis (without other provocation or London down) until turn 4. Japan still cant attack US holdings like guam and Philippines, but it can still “pass at peace” and just go right through the US area.
There are 2 good reasons to jump the gun
1) to enter China to stack on the proactive defense
2) to do the transport-boggle by moving the UK ship into the japan fleet and then having ANZAC declare separately (but as I said before, this is only a trick; the Japanese can simply leave their troops on the ships and this does nothing)
There are 3 good reasons not to jump the gun
Don’t confuse this with the point that a constructive declaration of war BY RUSSIA AGAINST JAPAN “does nothing” and has no downside because it is necessary to permit the Russians to enter “allied” territory on the pac board. It is the border crossing attack that affects Mongolia, not the declaration.
@IKE:
What about the US bonus money you’re missing out on though? �
Forgive me I forget, if UK/AZ declares war then US has to wait until which turn to declare war and get it’s bonuses?� � Is it end of turn 3 or 4?
Japan goes j1 against USA and at the end of Turn 4 the USA has gotten 60 IPC bonus cash at that point.
Correction USA or UK or Anzac. And it would actually be 80 IPC’s of bonus income by end of their turn 4.
I think you should go find your own rule book and take a seat, my good sir. :-o
Just curious, how long have you been playing by the wrong rules?
The downside of the UK/ANZAC declare is that the US is decoupled from the alliance and there is no “tripwire” so the US CANNOT declare war on the Axis (without other provocation or London down) until turn 4. Japan still cant attack US holdings like guam and Philippines, but it can still “pass at peace” and just go right through the US area.
There are 2 good reasons to jump the gun
1) to enter China to stack on the proactive defense
2) to do the transport-boggle by moving the UK ship into the japan fleet and then having ANZAC declare separately (but as I said before, this is only a trick; the Japanese can simply leave their troops on the ships and this does nothing)There are 3 good reasons not to jump the gun
- you just cost the us
21 turns worth of bonus, in an otherwise J2 game- the US has strict movement restrictions such that they cannot even position up
- decoupled, as above
Don’t confuse this with the point that a constructive declaration of war BY RUSSIA AGAINST JAPAN “does nothing” and has no downside because it is necessary to permit the Russians to enter “allied” territory on the pac board. It is the border crossing attack that affects Mongolia, not the declaration.
Slight correction.
With a J2 DOW, USA get the bonus on turn 2 but would get it anyway on turn 3. In fact, if there is no Japanese DOW by turn 3 USA will get the Philippines bonus, which compensates for just over 1/3 of the lost income. No one should keep peace with the UK as Japan for 3 turns but you might like peace with the USA if UK/ANZAC DOWs on you.
Thank you Mr. Simon. Since Japan also gets the 10 oil + scrap bonus for not being at war with USA, I probably should have said something more like it costs the Allies a fair amount of both lost income AND potentially gives extra money to Japan. Japan could still feel forced to declare on the US, somehow, but if they can avoid it makes give Japan a chance to focus W/o worrying about the biggest enemy of all.
As a result, the UK/ANZAC early declaration should only be used when the potential benefits (holding silk road for multiple turns or boggling the japan transports badly) dramatically outweigh the J4 benefits to Japan.
On UK 2 “So, are those guys on the land, or are they sitting in the hold and playing cards on the landing craft?” would split the difference
Good point. That’s really a 4th reason not to jump the gun.
Simon33: “With a J2 DOW, USA get the bonus on turn 2 but would get it anyway on turn 3. In fact, if there is no Japanese DOW by turn 3 USA will get the Philippines bonus, which compensates for just over 1/3 of the lost income. No one should keep peace with the UK as Japan for 3 turns but you might like peace with the USA if UK/ANZAC DOWs on you.”
USA entry into the war totally hinges on Japan.
This presents interesting dynamics between Japan/Russia/UK/ANZAC, that is what makes it fun. There is give and take on actions by each country.
Russia stacks on R1 the Manchurian border, what does Japan do?
Japan on J1 ignores said stack and goes J1 against the Allies, what do the Allies do?
That is just one scenario.
That is what makes this game fun and interesting when we ‘talk’ about 1940.
What do you do when they do this and then you do that and they do that. It is all inter-related in the first 4 turns.
Another example from a global game.
Does Germany really want Japan to go J1 and get the USA into the war? Which usually means USA is knocking on the Western front on USA3. IMHO a KGF strategy is totally based once again on Japan. Japan goes J1, USA goes all in on Germany to neutralize Germany/Italy ASAP so they can divert over to the Pacific in Turn 5-7.
One last scenario to talk about.
IF Germany is going Sea Lion, that is the plan. How does that influence Japan’s actions? Does Germany really want Japan to go J1 or J2 on the USA?
If the Russians stack R1, the attack has good odds for japan, but I’ve seen the battle go wrong and since its off game-start, Japan can’t affect the odds it just brings everything. The problem with doing this as Russia is that 18 men can’t attack Manchuria either–they are too weak and the Russians cant affect that until R3, if ever. On R2, Japan often has 2 more transports and could bring even more naval support, so it would be a blowout.
Either way, Japan calls the shots. Japan can attack, or not, but that’s not true of Russia all they can do is stack on the coast, or not. Until USA comes into the war and can add some defense, its just not a good move–you’re right next to Japans main base and if he reduces you, he owns the Russian East. If Japan “goes for the allies” that was probably the original game plan anyways and he’s free to ignore Russia, or not.
A J1 is awesome. But it spreads you thin as Japan and brings down the wrath of the US at the expense of UK PAC. The USA can move pretty freely across the pacific b/c of the bases, and bombers have an immense range so the USA can be all over japan in a KJF, fast.
In my experience, KGF doesn’t work. You can’t kill Germany until they’ve essentially thrown all their power away on another attack, they are simply too rich and too well defended. All the key zones are within 2 spaces of their capital, and by land. Losing fleets, Africa or Denmark still don’t mean Germany is stopped, those are just preliminary steps.
You can spend the whole game 1-8 building up enough forces to start to cut Germany (or more likely, Italy, though its loss hardly matters since the can opener is already doing its job whether Italy lives or dies) apart but if you did it 100% then Japan rages over the little buddies. Then, with Germany you dance back and forth, whereas if you can hit or threaten Japan hard enough, he has to re-focus away from his $$ objectives. Some splitting is both possible and necessary with the US–and this includes making decisions after you see what happens. But less splitting is necessary during a KJF, if the UK brings a fleet together then the US can have minimal forces in the Atlantic (1 bomber, 1 transport, 1 destroyer gives you options) and still be irritating.
But less splitting is necessary during a KJF, if the UK brings a fleet together then the US can have minimal forces in the Atlantic (1 bomber, 1 transport, 1 destroyer gives you options) and still be irritating.
How about 5 bombers and the starting transport and cruiser along with the Brazilians + 2 units from the mainland U.S.?
America sends the bombers over early to hedge against Sealion, then focuses on Japan. The bombers can have fun for a few rounds, then fly over to Moscow when things start getting desperate over there.
A J1 is awesome. But it spreads you thin as Japan and brings down the wrath of the US at the expense of UK PAC. The USA can move pretty freely across the pacific b/c of the bases, and bombers have an immense range so the USA can be all over japan in a KJF, fast.
If the US player is going to KJF, he is free to build and position units in the Pacific regardless of what Japan does. Sure he’s limited to 3 ships a turn, but I’m not convinced that it makes much difference to Japan’s calculations.
I don’t think the old ideas about “keeping the U.S. out of the war” hold any merit anymore. As you say, KGF doesn’t work, so U.S. always goes KJF. However, Germany always does a Sealion feint, so the U.S. is distracted for a turn anyways. They also start with so little and are so far away that they are essentially “out of the war” even if they’re at war.
I don’t think the old ideas about “keeping the U.S. out of the war” hold any merit anymore.
I’ve had pretty good luck not doing anything to the US/UK/ANZAC till J4… am I in the minority? I do my l level best to keep the US out of the war, I only DOW UK/ANZAC if there is a chance safely knock out ships and take valuable territory. let me know your thoughts!
I think the biggest drawbacks are that with a J1 you can steal borneo and HK then Malaya and UK PAC has no money. Strong UK and ANZAC players will occupy New Guinea (5), Celebes (3), Java Sumatra (4 each) for multiple turns, which makes India way too strong and not readily capable of being take over. Once Anzac has a fleet CV DD TTs its leapfrogging with USA, or it can generate 6 total fighters to make a strongpoint.
Japan 4 can focus on China, but they lose India, unless the UK fritters the shelter of diplomacy away…
basically you put the UK on its heels right out of the gates… i will have to consider this next game! thanks!
Many posts and I don’t think I understand the gambit completely.
It’s a gambit for the allies that requires a USSR attack on Japan, with the idea that Japan needs to take its focus off India? Hmm…
USSR1 you are putting all your troops in Amur and pulling the Japanese north? Am I reading it right? Or only moving there USSR2 after most of the troops have left Manchuria? In the latter case, there’s no real chance of Japan attacking.
I feel as though drawing Japan north is a lose lose. Japan can grab easy IPC’s and they don’t have the Russian monkey on their back. They wouldn’t have to worry about a threat to Korea or Manchuria. The best thing for Russia to do is move back to Amur on T2 or T3.
I agree sir. What Japan wants is those 20 pieces out of its hair. If it can destroy most or all of them, that’s great. If they leave for Moscow–that’s good for Japan, but not for the Axis after G7, if the Russians can survive that long.
If they stay in the east the whole game, they still aren’t a threat–but Russia holds its territory. Japan needs like 6-8 inf and some planes to ward of that stack. If they stay in the east, that’s good for Germany but not that bad for Japan.
Japan can do a lot of other things, like tie up or destroy UK/ANZAC fighters that are crossing asia heading to Moscow, or stratbomb Moscow from behind. Russia can’t, its too weak and under pressure to accomplish much other that survival.
