MOVED: D-DAY Question

@Ranor:

LHTR 2.0 says to this:

“If the attacker has not withdrawn all units, defending submarines may submerge.”

This implies defending subs submerge after the attacker has chosen to either retreat (or submerge) or not.

(page 16 - Condition B) Defender withdraws subs by submerging)

Page 14 is more to the point.

It categorically states that the Attacker choses to press the attack or retreat BEFORE defending submarines chose to submerge or remain surfaced.

@axis_roll:

@Krieghund:

In LHTR, the attacker’s choice to retreat is made before the defender’s choice is made to submerge.  In the box rules, the choices are made simultaneously.

how does THAT work?

Not very well.

@axis_roll:

Do you each write down your attack/withdraw perogative on paper and show it at the same time… I mean, how ELSE could you do it simultaneously?

That’s about the only way I can think of.  As TimTheEnchanter pointed out, this is an ambiguity in the rules.  There is no FAQ entry, and as far as I know no “official” ruling on this, and that’s why I answered the way I did.  My personal inclination would be to follow the “natural” order of things and let the attacker decide first, as in LHTR.  If anyone cares enough, I can ask Larry Harris, though I suspect his answer would agree with LHTR (for obvious reasons).  Just one more reason to use LHTR rather than the OOB rules.

@Cmdr:

But this is AARe not LHTR.

Enhanced doesn’t alter the ability to move out of a contested sea zone as part of a combat movement.  Bean is correct.

Look at the Sequence of play as well.

Buy units
Combat movement
Resolve combat  <==  detection occurs here, AFTER combat movement.
non combat movement
etc

Hopefully you get the point.

I agree, there’s not a lot of times you’d want to do that.  But I could see it in rare circumstances.  Usually transports, even unloaded ones (who leaves loaded transports out where they can be shot at?)

More fun is when someone forgets in AAR a submarine does not block enemy submarines and you sail under, sink his three aircraft carriers, submerge with your surviving submarines and watch his 6 fighters go sploosh in the Pacific Ocean.  It was a beautiful day.  He could have recovered easily, but the moral hit alone caused him to concede the game.  The best part is, submarines can’t shoot aircraft, so he HAD to take the carriers as casualties!

How often does that occur?  Like almost never!  Same with having a need to send fighters out to kill something and feinting at enemy ships to make the move “legal” even if you have no intention of ever recovering those fighters!

@ShadowHAwk:

Eh but 2 does not state it has to be a combat move. And since submarines threat hostile seazones as friendly the zone is effectively not a hostile zone and number 3 allows the movement. I would say Yes to question 3 based on this. Moving through a friendly seazone is not considered a combat move and the SZ not containing destroyers is effectively a friendly seazone for a sub.

Well, I’d be willing to advocate both views. As I quoted submarines treat hostile sea zones as friendly, but that statement is under “combat movement phase”. Looking under “ncm phase” this is not repeated, in fact, it states that NO sea units may move through hostile sea zones EXCEPT in the case of enemy submerged submarines.

Might be worth looking more into, but I assume mostly for theoretical interest.

Never mind, figured it out :-)

Damn, we can;t even agree on the rules here…